OPINION

Missionaries Have Little Impact on Indian Society

October 25, 2008
Chandra

Our Liberal news channels have been spewing hatred against Hindus for the last few weeks on the basis of what I believe are lies. Let us examine some points made by the media


a. Missionaries play a critical role in education:


WRONG


Less than 3% of all students go to a missionary school (ICSE web-site). This is in line with the proportion of Christian population. Ironically, most students in a missionary school are neither Christians nor poor caste Hindus. No sir, they are elite, secular Hindus

b. Missionaries play a critical role in healthcare

WRONG


90% of healthcare services are provided by the Govt, another 9% by the non-missionary private sector. This is according to what I found from Govt web-sites. Assuming it is even higher, it will again be no more than 3% of the population
c. Conversion is economically beneficial to the Individual and family

WRONG


There is no data to support this contention. The overall data shows that Christians are better off than other religious groups. But then many converted Christians are ex-upper castes as well. CSO data does confirm that upper castes have higher incomes than other castes. Anecdotal evidence also suggests that benefits (if any) are short term in nature

d. Missionaries are sanguine, peace loving folks

WRONG

Historically, this is not true. Missionaries have often worked hand in hand with brutal militia all over the world. It is only the minority status in India that prevents missionaries in India from brutalising all of us

What is the truth about missionaries?

a. They spread lies


Most of these missionaries are funded by right wing nuts from southern part of the United States. This crowd believes in creationism crap rather than on rational scientific theory. Is this what we Indians want in our country?
For years we have been trying to get rid of superstition and other religious nonsense and now our educated liberals fall for this evangelical nonsense.

b. They spread hatred


Enough has been said and shown on these pages that show what missionaries have been printing and saying about Hindus in our country. They seem to suggest that Hindus and Hinduism are inferior to all religions. Apart from violating law, these comments are an assault on the secular fabric of our nation

What should the Government do?

a. Ban all religious bodies from managing educational institutes.
b. Allow for conversions but ban missionaries
c. Block all foreign funds sent to local missionary organisations
d. Separate charity activity from missionary activity.
e. Ban all job reservations from lower castes of Christian community

The above measures will help India become a more secular country. Jai Hind!!

Chandra is a marketing consultant based out of Mumbai
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Missionaries Have Little Impact on Indian Society

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Author: Chandra

 

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#1
Sanjay
October 25, 2008
02:07 PM

That nun is claiming she was raped by about 40 men.

Next she'll be claiming that they carved a backwards B on her face, too.

Sorry, but if you've been raped by 40 guys, you're going to be pregnant. It's interesting how many people in the region claim to have been raped but never have any children to show for it. Don't tell me the Catholic Church is operating abortion clinics round the clock for them.

#2
JI
October 25, 2008
03:34 PM

Hey Chandra & other Hindu nationalists,

When you sympathise with mindless unnecessary violence you yourselves expose yourselves as bigots. India is a multi-religious, multi-ethnic, multi-lingual nation. It can only survive as a secular nation. India is making a complete ass of itself to the rest of the world. It is showing that it is becoming an increasingly intolerant and violent society. If violence continues to escalate like this then the future is not bright for India.

The attacks on missionaries in India are just a reflection of anti-Christian sentiment that has increased since the BJP came to power in 1998. It started with an attack on Sonia Gandhi and her Roman Catholic background; now that hatred has widened to ordinary Indian Christians. Would you condone violence on Hindus living in the west? I think not. People in America are beginning to ask why has our country signed a nuclear deal with India when it cannot even protect its own minorities.

#3
kerty
October 25, 2008
04:14 PM

JI

Missionaries and conversions are the very embodiment of bigotry, hatred and religious warfare. So naturally, it attracts the same.

"Would you condone violence on Hindus living in the west? I think not."

I do not know of any western country where hindus are trying to convert that country into Hindu culture, take over politics, political parties or power of any western country. Hindu do not threaten the cultural, political, ideological or religious hegemony of any western countries. Nor they try to play divide and destroy games. If Hindus were to try to do any of that, rest assured that all hell would break loose upon Hindus living in west as well as India.


"People in America are beginning to ask why has our country signed a nuclear deal with India when it cannot even protect its own minorities."

India does not need this nuke deal. It is America that desperately needs it and xian Sonia is acting like a missionary converting nuclear free India into a NPT and CTBT beggar regime for a bowl of rice. She has lied to parliament, bought votes for cash in order to ram this deal down the throat of India. India does not want to be the ass for rest of the world. She can take her nuke deal and her minorities and shove them to Vatican or west. In fact, India needs to worry and have a closer look when missionaries start worrying about future of India.

#4
kerty
October 25, 2008
04:28 PM

correction..xian Sonia is acting like a missionary converting nuclear independent India into a NPT and CTBT beggar regime for a bowl of rice.

#5
Sanjay
October 25, 2008
04:45 PM

Apparently, some of the activities of Indian bishops make even the Vatican uneasy:

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/world/AP/story/741149.html

See, there is this fallacy that Christianity in the 3rd world is practiced the same way it is in the 1st world, and it's simply not true. Look at that African archbishop who decided to take a wife. Apparently some 3rd world Christians have an anything-goes mentality when it comes to interpreting Church teachings. The always politically-minded Vatican had to tolerate him for awhile before defrocking him. Now I think they've reinstated him again. I'm sure he's carrying on as usual.

#6
Sohan
October 25, 2008
05:39 PM

No comment on whether or not she was raped, but I would like to correct this glaring biological misconception:

"Sorry, but if you've been raped by 40 guys, you're going to be pregnant."

Ova do not erupt in response to the amount of semen provided. Women ovulate at a particular time of their menstruation cycles regardless of whether or not they have been ejaculated into, and can only be fertilized for a few days around that time. If her insemination takes place outside this window of opportinity, she will not be impregnated no matter how many men said insemination involves.

#7
Sanjay
October 25, 2008
06:43 PM

Like I said, there are a lot of proclaimed rape victims in India who very conveniently seem to be in the wrong part of their ovulation cycle. With so many rape claims, they can't all be at the wrong time of month.

Sectarianism is a strong motivation to lie.

Are you going to tell me that all the sperm miraculously evaporated? Look, rape produces forensic evidence, and responsible claimants would seek out examination to ensure that the evidence is taken. Those who are fabricating a claim are more likely to avoid the gathering of such evidence. So rape claimants ought to do themselves a favour, and make sure they get examined.

Hell, I'm a male, but if I were to suffer some kind of homosexual rape, I'm not going to duck contacting the police, or at least go to a medical clinic to have them get the evidence.

This lady is ducking in and out of hiding, and making shrill claims to the media. Sorry, but I find her behaviour more than a little suspicious.
She's playing some kind of game.

#8
commonsense
October 25, 2008
07:55 PM

""Our Liberal news channels have been spewing hatred against Hindus""

another thekedaar is born

#9
Chandra
October 25, 2008
07:57 PM

JI

There are no arguments here supporting any violence. Secondly, there is nothing here that seems to suggest that Hindu violence of any sort is acceptable. Therefore, it is difficult to understand your conclusions. Accusing somebody of being a hindu nationalist is crazy. Just for the record, I voted congress in 2004.

The fundamental issue we are trying to address here is the mindless propaganda of the evangelicals. Instead of dealing with this problem, you choose to label me. That is poor debating. Are you suggesting that evangelicals means and methods, which includes denigrating the majority religion is the way forward?

Finally, let us address the issue of violence against ordinary christians. Where? In Orissa? Do you know anything at all about the problem in Orissa or have you been reading too much of Times of India?

#10
Anamika
October 25, 2008
08:02 PM

"People in America are beginning to ask why has our country signed a nuclear deal with India when it cannot even protect its own minorities."

Ummmm...not really. People in America are busy fighting their own hate-filed fanatics. And as the Americans do everything better and bigger than us poor third world types, THEIR hate-filled fanatics are not just some chief minister types but actually running for president, complete with access to the nuclear arsenal!

#11
Jennifer @ Quiverfull Family
URL
October 26, 2008
12:03 AM

I am truly saddened to see the violence against Christians in India being condoned here, the attempts to explain away the pain and injury these people are experiencing is heartbreaking. Even if you do not agree with their beliefs, how can you justify these attacks against them?

I am a Canadian, so I don't have first hand experience with the situation. But I do know that the Christians being persecuted are not retaliating, they are fleeing. Where are these Christian militants you speak of?

Is it a crime to invite others into a relationship with the living God, creator of the universe? Does this act excuse rape, the burning of homes, beatings? I don't think so.

#12
Chandra
October 26, 2008
12:13 AM

Jennifer

It is unfortunate that readers like you are being misled by incorrect reporting. This is exactly the sort of reporting that got your neighbours into war in Iraq.

Firstly, christians are not persecuted in India.

Example: Dec 25th, christmas is a de facto national holiday. This is for a population that make up for 2% of the population.

Christians are over-represented in the current national cabinet.

Now, coming down to persecution. This is false.
Missionary funded militants shot and killed 4 hindu activists who worked closely with tribals in a district in Orissa. Why did they kill them?

They killed them because higher castes are ineligible for Government reservations. The four hindu activists opposed these relatively higher castes when they asked for reservations. The killing of these activists led to retaliatory action, a lot of unsavoury. If you are a practicing question, I must ask you - Why are missionaries bent on suppressing tribals? Why are missionaries spreading hatred across the country? Why are your friends across the border pumping in a few hundred million dollars to tell average hindus that they are pagans and that their religion is primitive. Why?

You christians abroad must be ashamed of what you have accomplished in India. During the last 20 years you have managed through ypur fundamentalism to alienate a peaceful community from the national mainstream. Shame on you

#13
AnArch
URL
October 26, 2008
01:39 AM

To counter these Sunday morning whitewashers, an article by Ms. Seema Mustafa,

By Seema Mustafa

It took a lot of guts for the Orissa nun to come out with her testimony. I had visited the exact spot in Kandhamar district, just days after she was raped, and the burnt jeep, the desecrated statues of Jesus Christ, the broken windows bore testimony to the gruesome violence in the name of religion. Villagers looked on from a distance but when we went and spoke to them the story came pouring out. Yes a priest and nun were caught by the mobs, they were stripped and beaten, they were paraded through the village to the market place where the police stood and watched, and yes the nun was raped.

And what has happened since? Nothing. For days and weeks the Navin Patnaik government stood by and did nothing to protect the poorest of the poor as they were killed, and turned out of their houses just because they were Christians and refused to give up their faith. The attackers speak of conversion, but there has been no forcible conversion, only conversion under Article 25 of the Indian Constitution that gives every single religion in this country the right to preach and propagate. The force was being used then, and is being used now, to beat Christians into renouncing their religion and embracing the Vishwa Hindu Parishad and RSS version of Hinduism.

The nun was not in hiding, she was in hospital, physically and mentally traumatized. She was treated for not just the bleeding wounds but also for the mental trauma, and has only just about recovered sufficiently to come out in public with her story. It took courage, and she should be respected for what she did. Not just for herself, not just for the Christians but for women and humanity. Her right to privacy has to be respected, and it is now for this UPA government that somehow still claims it is secular to ensure that she and the other victims of the horrific violence in Orissa and Karnataka must not be dragged through the coals. The nun is right, and any one who has visited Kandhamar can vouch for this. It is not safe for her to even step inside that state, let alone the district and be questioned by a police force that has done great disservice to the uniform by allowing the mobs to terrorise and brutalise a community.

Some sections of the Christian community, probably in sheer desperation, opened dialogue with the RSS and its ilk. Others criticized them, for they know that this dialogue is false insofar as the RSS and its front organizations are concerned, and its leaders use it to project themselves as one, secular and two, as alternatives to the state with the power to restore peace. Some time ago, religious Muslim leaders too opened this dialogue with the RSS and even attended BJP conferences and meetings to prove their "we are all one" point. In some ways they are, because fundamentalism regardless of the religion gets together at some point, particularly when it has to counter its real opponent: secularism.

Secularism is an ideology that works around the fundamental principle of equality and justice. It is unfortunate that those in power today cynically exploit this to suit their ends. The BJP is more honest, it does not even bother to pay lip service to the cause, and basically denounces all those who do not agree with its divide and rule policy as pseudo secularists or anti-nationals. The Congress remains as hypocritical as always, and has become an expert at fiddling while mobs destroy lives and homes. The regional parties are not exactly communal but are totally opportunistic using specific vote bank policies with more dexterity now than even the Congress did in its better days. The regional leaders do not hesitate to join up with communal parties as and when it suits them but to give them their due, the Nitish Kumars, Chandrababu Naidus and Mayawati's do manage to preserve some levels of communal amity. After all today the unrest amongst the minorities is greatest in Congress ruled states and not in Bihar, or for that matter Uttar Pradesh (except for Azamgarh that had a direct link with Delhi) where despite the large Muslim population, the atmosphere is more peaceful and harmonious.

Union Home Minister Shivraj Patil has disappeared from view. His greatest achievement has been to escape the axe after he assured Congress president Sonia Gandhi that his loyalty to her could never come under question. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is wandering the world, earning accolades for the nuclear deal and for growth gone wrong. Parliament in a parliamentary democracy has been diminished as an institution. The government is directly responsible. It has done away with the monsoon and winter sessions. It has reduced the sittings this year to just 40 days. The country is reeling under the impact of violence, inflation and a collapsing economy. But the government does not feel that there is any need for Parliament to discuss these and any number of burning issues, as it does not want to be held accountable for non governance. It does not care for either Parliament or for parliamentary democracy as under the Congress, the executive has been given the full mandate to be reckless.

India is a pluralistic state. It is any number of states and any number of peoples all rolled together under one nation, one flag and one Constitution. Its oxygen is freedom based on justice and equality. It will disintegrate and die if it is deprived of any of these, and is compelled to adopt a monolithic mantle that is totally unnatural to its existence. Fundamentalist groups insist on imposing their ideologies, their religions, their thoughts, their justice, their vision on people, even as they create the concept of the 'other' and try and unite their supporters to combat the opponents. If India has to survive and flourish as a healthy, breathing, vibrant democracy, secularism has to be protected and nurtured.

The nun from Kandhamar has shown us how. It is for us to learn the lesson.

#14
kerty
October 26, 2008
02:04 AM

AnArch

Seema Mustafa has ruined whatever credibility Nun might had. It is proof enough that nun is playing an allegation game for politics.

The Nun should have made herself available to investigative agencies to establish that she was indeed raped and help trace the culprits thru forensic evidence. So now, we have nothing but allegations from her that can not be medically proven and hysterical political propaganda from likes of seema without needing to offer any burden of proof.

#15
kela
October 26, 2008
02:45 AM

Praise the Lord
99.9% of this article is complete nonsense.If like the author says Christian missionaries have no impact on Indian society why then are they being targeted by hindu terrorists like VHP,Bajrang Dal etc ?
Just to further prove this author is telling lies or making fallacious analysis lets have a poll here right now.How many readers here have studied in missionary institutions or visited missionary hospitals ?
The great Hinduvadi leader LK ADVANI himself in a missionary school

#16
Sanjay
October 26, 2008
02:59 AM

Here's an example of religious activists masquerading as "secular" "moderates"

http://news.webindia123.com/news/articles/India/20081019/1082497.html

Umm, sorry, but if they're getting all hot under the collar over some perceived blasphemy from a magazine article and demanding a big apology over it, etc, then it shows they're not secular. Again, another example of immoderate people hijacking words like "secular" when they are nothing of the kind. They aren't in favour of secularism, they want everyone to bend over backwards for their religion.

#17
Chandra
October 26, 2008
03:01 AM

Kela

Missionaries are spreading hatred. If that is your definition of impact, sure they are having

Anarch

I for one and many in Orissa do believe the nun's version. The Supreme court has directed the nun to make herself available to the Orissa police and I think the identification process will resolve this sordid drama. The problem is that the Nun continues to defy the Supreme court. I think that posture is not required. The whole media is watching this and any screwing up by the Orissa police would be noticed. The Orissa Govt has also agreed to fund the reconstruction of all destroyed churches. It is only fools who would attach places of worship. The Orissa Govt is determined to catch hold of these fools. Naveen babu is doing an outstanding job in Orissa and God bless him and the state. The violence between the dalits and tribals will eventually be resolved. This would involve backing down by missionaries and Hindu activitists.

As long as the Congress and a few others like Karuna/Laloo view minorities as vote banks, India will keep having conflicts. Secularism would mean equality of people of all religions and not as minorities first as most left wing liberals like Seema and Manmohan Singh would like us to believe. My suggestions for removing religion from education will have a positive impact on secularism in the country.

#18
Sanjay
October 26, 2008
03:01 AM

Here's an example of religious activists masquerading as "secular" "moderates"

http://tinyurl.com/5uzl9q

Umm, sorry, but if they're getting all hot under the collar over some perceived blasphemy from a magazine article and demanding a big apology over it, etc, then it shows they're not secular. Again, another example of immoderate people hijacking words like "secular" when they are nothing of the kind. They aren't in favour of secularism, they want everyone to bend over backwards for their religion.

#19
kela
October 26, 2008
03:26 AM

Where's your proof chandra ?
most of those articles blamed on christian missionaries are written by hinduvadis,just like in Malegaon blasts the ABVP tried to blame it on the SIMI.
Glad to know to Chandra thinks Naveen who has been educated in chirstian institutions is doing a great job.

#20
Sohan
October 26, 2008
03:35 AM

"Like I said, there are a lot of proclaimed rape victims in India who very conveniently seem to be in the wrong part of their ovulation cycle. With so many rape claims, they can't all be at the wrong time of month."

Yes, they can. The "right time of the month" is only a couple of days long at most. Unless the rapists are specifically targeting females at peak fertility, the chances of successful fertilization are very small. In any case, your original statement, you cannot deny, clearly indicated that getting raped by 40 men is somehow a better guarantor of fertilization. Unless she was raped by 40 men at the rate of 1 a day, it isn't. However, this would definitely show up in a forensic examination shortly after the alleged rape. Which she, out of shame (if it happened) or as a deliberate attempt to sabotage efforts at medical verification (if it didn't happen), did not undergo. I'm inclined to believe the latter, due to various circumstances surrounding the alleged event.

#21
Chandra
October 26, 2008
03:36 AM

what proof?

#22
Naveen Roy
URL
October 26, 2008
03:55 AM

Another bigot. Just stop frothing at the mouth people. You provide fodder!! This goes for the author and the stoopid commenters!!

#23
JI
October 26, 2008
03:59 AM

kerty

"Missionaries and conversions are the very embodiment of bigotry, hatred and religious warfare. So naturally, it attracts the same."

I do not understand how you can equate a missionary with the likes of Banjrang Dal.

Article 25 of the Indian Constitution states that "Subject to public order, morality and health and to the other provisions of this Part, all persons are equally entitled to freedom of conscience and the right freely to profess, practice and propagate religion". Therefore, a missionary is not breaking the law by trying to propagate his faith. What is clearly illegal is the wanton destruction to life and property, which is what the Bajrang Dal and VHP like to indulge in. The VHP is actively involved in the conversion of tribal people (who follow animist traditions) and the re-conversion of Christian converts to the Hinduism.


"India does not need this nuke deal. It is America that desperately needs it and xian Sonia is acting like a missionary converting nuclear free India into a NPT and CTBT beggar regime for a bowl of rice."

This is of course rubbish. America doesn't need any nuclear deal with India, but India needs as much energy it can get. With a huge population that continues to grow, any sustainable means of generating power is attractive to India.

I suppose you could go further and say that India doesn't need foreign investment, which is ridiculous because India needs it very badly. Have you noticed that the BSE Index has dropped by almost 50% since the start of the year. With bombs, religious conflict, and instability increasing, foreign investment is bound to move out of India, making India's rise to superpowerdom a myth.


"I do not know of any western country where hindus are trying to convert that country into Hindu culture, take over politics, political parties or power of any western country. Hindu do not threaten the cultural, political, ideological or religious hegemony of any western countries."

Hindus are free to propagate their religion in the west, and they do (e.g. Hare Krishna movement, Deepak Chopra), but they attract very few converts. I think the intrinsic inequalities in the caste system act as a barrier.

Are you so insecure to think that Christianity is threatening the "cultural, political, ideological or religious hegemony" of India? My God, you really have been won over by those folks in the Sangh Parivar.

The word 'conversion' is becoming synonymous with 'terrorism' in India nowadays - a connotation that could not be further from the truth. What does conversion mean except the choice of another faith or ideology? What people like you and Chandra really want to do is control people's thought patterns, which is a totally futile goal.

#24
Chandra
October 26, 2008
04:00 AM


Naveen Roy

You are the one frothing with anger. Relax!

#25
Chandra
October 26, 2008
04:15 AM

JI

I dont see any difference between missionaries and bajrang dal. Both of them spread hatred. The missionaries are so short of confidence in Jesus that they have to lie about Hinduism, offer cash as gifts and these days pay maoists to kill Hindu religious leaders. It is really shameful. The tragedy is christian fundamentilists have educated defenders like you, since when did educated lot in India start defending fundamentalists? Notice that when it comes to mullahs, our educated crowd makes no qualms at all. Hypocrisy of the highest order. Shameful
Missionaries have a right to propagate but not to spread hatred against hindus. That is what missionaries are doing across the country - lying and spreading hatred. Shameful

Your comments on the nuclear deal are as naive as your comments on missionaries. The current Govt has not been able to provide land to set up 28 B dollar worth of power projects (Source: bloomberg). Where do you think they will get land for nuclear plants. Some lefties like you I am sure will turn up to protest for the displaced people. Secondly, the US is not doing us a favor. The speed with which they passed this in congress indicates a desire not to miss out of potential contracts. Greed drives America. Evangelicals drive America.

About FDI, it is a mutually benificial thing. About the NIFTY crashing, you cannot use that advance your arguments against superpowerdom, it is absolutely silly. More ignorance. Now one can understand how missionaries get through people like you - lot of ignorance I reckon, or did they give you a motorcycle :-)?

#26
kela
October 26, 2008
04:40 AM


why ,Chandra are you jealous you got only a bicycle for spreading your hate and lies on cyberspace ?

First of all the title of this article says missionarys have little impact on indian society and then the author makes a u-turn and goes on a rant accusing missionaries of spreading hate and inducing people to convert with no proof ,what a load of crap.

#27
kela
October 26, 2008
04:51 AM

"Ban all job reservations from lower castes of Christian community"

how does converting to christianity change their socio economic status among the majority hindus ?
also if this reservation is only for hindus why should christians suffer for the evils of hindu society? there should be separate reservation for christians

#28
kela
October 26, 2008
04:55 AM

"Ban all job reservations from lower castes of Christian community"

how does converting to christianity change their socio economic status among the majority hindus ?
also if this reservation is only for hindus why should christians suffer for the evils of hindu society? there should be separate reservation for christians

#29
JI
October 26, 2008
06:28 AM

Chandra,

You talk only about Christian missionaries. Aren't you being a bit hypocritical? Wealthy NRIs in the US and UK are sending large amounts of money to fund the activities of the RSS in India, and RSS affiliates like the VHP, as I have said, are involved in Hindu missionary work, often preaching hatred toward Christians and Muslims.

In the RSS's phantasmagorical vision of creating a Hindu nation, the Christians represent the "other", which prevents the vision being fulfilled. It happened to the Jews in Nazi Germany, and today I see it happening to India's minorities. Are you so gullible to not see the fascist designs of the RSS?

#30
kela
October 26, 2008
07:14 AM

VHP activities in USA are well doucmented in www.stopfundinghate.org

As regards forcing the nun to depose before Orissa police ,isn't that really inhuman and inconsiderate considering orissa police personnel were mute spectators when the incident happened

#31
Chandra
October 26, 2008
07:17 AM

Kela

"there should be separate reservation for christians"

What happened? Still unemployed?

#32
kela
October 26, 2008
07:17 AM

New Alert -news channels are showing terrorist sadhvi had several meetings with top BJP ministers including BJP president Singh.

#33
kela
October 26, 2008
07:19 AM

ah personal attacks now,showing your true colours,what next ?bring it on

#34
Chandra
October 26, 2008
07:23 AM

Kela

Here are some downloads from the Internet.

from a missionary

"For the Hindu reading the Bible, it takes about 2 to 3 years to CLEANSE their mind and their heart and follow Jesus more and more closely"

"Hindus who are taught not to put on an outward show for Christ find that they are transformed profoundly from within, and this is recognized by their family, and the family becomes interested. He knows now that Jesus is the Lord of all and a solid foundation is laid in him. The new believer moves from a place where he has understood Christ as one of the gods to a place where he now realizes that JESUS ALONE IS GOD"

#35
Chandra
October 26, 2008
07:25 AM

More Internet downloads - Missionaries comments on Hindus

"A Converted Hindu says. Sin is basically torturing, so we torture ourselves, punish ourselves, so that God will take our sins away and give us a good life."

"People are hurt by false religions (Hinduism)"

"Dramatic Recent Progress Evangelical Christianity is growing 2x faster than Islam and 3x faster than Buddhism and Hinduism. Major Religions Annual Growth Rates"

"Kali, a popular Hindu IDOL in India, gives riches to the poor, revenge to the oppressed, joy to the childless. Previously, a boy was killed every day at her temple in Calcutta. HUMANS are still sacrificed to her"

"Hindu religion tells DALITS they are worth less than animals, and they are treated as such"

#36
Chandra
October 26, 2008
07:28 AM

More downloads

"gods such as Shiva are declared to be idols, which are mere facades for operating devils (i.e., evil spirits). The worship of these idols (idolatry) comprises companionship with devils"

"While worshiping the idol of the monkey god, a large statue located near my home, I noticed something for the first time. I watched birds land on the idol and eat the food offered to it. I noticed that the idol was covered with bird droppings. This confused me. Why would a sovereign god be unable to keep himself clean from the birds?"

#37
kela
October 26, 2008
07:31 AM

Chandra ,are all sadhvis and sadhus like Sadhvi Pragya ?What was Rajnath Singh doing meeting people like her?

#38
Chandra
October 26, 2008
07:31 AM


This is from the Internet. Anybody who as met a missionary in a village in orissa will vouch for even more lies.

#39
kela
October 26, 2008
07:36 AM

chandra ,if you can prove these are preachings of missionaries go ahead and take them to task ,report them.these could very well be the doings of some mischievous hinduvadis.

#40
Chandra
October 26, 2008
07:38 AM

JI

NRIs are Indian citizens and therefore cannot be prevented from transferring money into the country. Of course, if your point is banning foreign citizens of Indian origin from transferring money to Hindu and muslim organisations, I am in favor of it. We can end this nonsense once and for all.

I agree, we should ban VHP RSS and BD. But then we should ban all religous organisations...Hindu, Muslim and christian. We can end this nonsense in one shot. I have had enough it

#41
Chandra
October 26, 2008
07:44 AM

Kela

You can paste these comments on google and trace the source. You as a christian can clarify if these are genuine organisations.

#42
kela
October 26, 2008
07:56 AM

lol i have better things to do,i know them to be false.Like the Pope has said i believe in quality over quantity.As far as i know ,their are no christian political parties.Using religion as a base for politics is disgusting and ungodly

#43
kela
October 26, 2008
08:02 AM

Banning foreign funding is a stupid idea.Look what happened when the foreigners took out money from the stock market,its going to be a dull diwali for man.You are happy with foreign funding if it directly benefits your pocket.To grow spiritually it is important we have interactions across boundaries,becuase in the end we are all sons and daughters of the same god and have to share the same space.We can't live in a cocoon.

PS Chandra btw i hope yours is a loud and sparkling diwali

#44
kerty
October 26, 2008
08:56 AM

JI

"I do not understand how you can equate a missionary with the likes of Banjrang Dal."

Hate Begets Hate. Missionaries produce counter response. They produce equal and opposite backlash, mostly from dalits and tribals against missionary attempts to divide their communities thru conversions and steal reservations from them.

"missionary is not breaking the law by trying to propagate his faith."

That is because Sonia congress refuses to ban conversions even when they pose grave threat to communal harmony. That will change when congress loses power at the center. States are trying to enact laws as conversions create law and order problems, but things will change only when center shows resolve to fight the scourge of missionaries.

"America doesn't need any nuclear deal with India, but India needs as much energy it can get. With a huge population that continues to grow, any sustainable means of generating power is attractive to India."

NPT and CTBT are american initiatives and it has been trying for decades to get India under such treaties. That is why it is bending over backward to get India to sign it. American Nuke industry stands to gain billions in Nuke trade with India. By all estimates, nuke energy will remain very small % of India's energy needs. Even in America, McCain wants to revive nuke energy to solve energy crisis but Obama does not view it as alternative energy. It creates nuke cartel, and does not create an outlet to rest of the world become energy independent. Will america allow every country to develop nuke energy? Will the world be safer place because of it? It is a regressive step that maintains America's monopoly over energy. The arguments presented by congress to sell Nuke deal are BS and con job.

"I suppose you could go further and say that India doesn't need foreign investment, which is ridiculous because India needs it very badly. Have you noticed that the BSE Index has dropped by almost 50% since the start of the year."

India has to create sustainable growth from within. The recent collepse of Indian markets and looming recession prove the dangers of integrating Indian economy too closely with American. India does not need to become america's economic colony where India's welfare is hopelessly dependent on America. We can see congress acting as colonial stooges, in bed with missionaries

"Hindus are free to propagate their religion in the west, and they do (e.g. Hare Krishna movement, Deepak Chopra), but they attract very few converts. I think the intrinsic inequalities in the caste system act as a barrier."

Again, these are apple and orange analogies and con arguments. Propagation of Hindu faith in the west does not seek or pose any challenge to social, cultural, ideological or political hegemony of the host countries. The same can not be said about missionaries - as they seek to obliterate social, cultural and political foundation of India and create a nexus with anti-india ideologies and parties - like they used to enjoy with colonial rulers - where colonialists and missionaries worked like a hand in glove to assist each other to subjugate India.

"the word 'conversion' is becoming synonymous with 'terrorism' in India nowadays - a connotation that could not be further from the truth."

I suggest you ask that to Kashmiri pandits. Or ask tribals in Australia, blacks in south africa or native Indians in usa. Ask them what kind of price they had to pay for conversions. They will tell you of genocides and ethnic cleansings, not just mere terrorism.

"What people like you...really want to do is control people's thought patterns, which is a totally futile goal."

Funny. That is what xians are accused of doing in America. It is xianity that is accused of fundamentalism, creationism and intolerance around the world.

"Wealthy NRIs in the US and UK are sending large amounts of money to fund the activities of the RSS in India, and RSS affiliates like the VHP, as I have said, are involved in Hindu missionary work, often preaching hatred toward Christians and Muslims."

That is because missionaries are receiving thousand times more money from the west for preaching hatred towards Hindus. That money is spent by west to create stooges within India that would help them carry out certain missions in the field of culture, ideology and politics. Much like CIA would fund certain operations to conduct certain espionage missions within host nations. Missionaries work on similar principles but on larger scope and scale.

"In the RSS's phantasmagorical vision of creating a Hindu nation, the Christians represent the "other", which prevents the vision being fulfilled. It happened to the Jews in Nazi Germany, and today I see it happening to India's minorities. Are you so gullible to not see the fascist designs of the RSS?"

Except that it is hindus that are seen as 'Other" by the missionaries. Look closer - they are ex-rulers masquerading as minorities and victims. And it is such coalition of the ex-ruling minorities that seek to recapture their rein and subjugation of India and see BD/VHP getting in their way.

Kela

"isn't that really inhuman and inconsiderate considering orissa police personnel were mute spectators when the incident happened"

First, one has to prove that it happened. If nothing happened, than there is nothing for spectators to do, in silence or otherwise. Police can not act merely on allegations and accusations in the media - the accuser has to work with the police and present herself to be medically tested for rape. Other wise, nobody would take allegations seriously in a high-stake political drama. When it comes to high-impact politics, people often become propagandists and make all kind of accusations for maximum political mileage.




#45
JI
October 26, 2008
09:11 AM

It's a shame, in a purportedly secular democratic country, that Christians in Orissa have become refugees in their own land, but people like Chandra are more concerned about some anti-Hindu statements on the internet. I think a certain inner bigotry underlies attitude, as if the Christians got what they deserved. This kind of nationalism I really don't like and it will destroy social amity, as it is already doing.

#46
Chandra
October 26, 2008
09:21 AM

JI

I think it is shameful that in your last 3 comments not once have you condemned Christian fundamentalism. Doesn't it exist? It is blinkered responses like this that are causing a rift in our society. When educated folks like you refuse to accept christian fundamentalism exists, what hope can we have for India. None at all....really a pity

#47
Chandra
October 26, 2008
09:26 AM

JI

Also, are you fine with the idea that such anti-hindu statements are fairly normal in missionary communication within India. The well known story of the booklet in Karanataka is now common knowledge. Instead of condemning such comments, you are trying to attack people who raise these issues. Has anybody here remotely suggested that violence is the answer? The problem with folks like you is that while most of us are even ready to ban fundamentalist hindu organisations, you ahvent suggested the same for christian organisations even a single time. That says a lot about your secular credentials..

#48
kela
October 26, 2008
09:40 AM

Kerty ,the raped nun was already medically examined,the cops insisted on it before registering a case.There should be a CBI enquiry since Orissa cops were mute spectators and by that act become accomplises to the rape since their duty is to protect human rights.

#49
Chandra
October 26, 2008
09:45 AM


Kela

Indeed those allegations are there. However, the SC must have decided on some basis that the nun cooperate with the Orissa police. Let us see where that goes. The rape was an heinous act and the guys convicted must be hung upside down their entire lives.

#50
JI
October 26, 2008
09:56 AM

"That is because Sonia congress refuses to ban conversions even when they pose grave threat to communal harmony. That will change when congress loses power at the center. States are trying to enact laws as conversions create law and order problems, but things will change only when center shows resolve to fight the scourge of missionaries."

Orissa and other BJP controlled states have had anti-conversion laws for years, yet not one person has been convicted of forcible or fraudulent conversion by any court in the country in the last 40 years. The reality is they are converting willingly, a fact you repeatedly find difficult to accept.

It is the illegal activities of the VHP and Bajrang Dal that are destroying communal harmony. Then in the wake of these activities, they justify their actions as a reaction to forced conversions. It's typical fascist ideology.

The BJP are desperate to win power, by hook or by crook. Is it any wonder they are remaining silent while their militant wing carries out violence? Their aim is polarise people along religious lines.


"Propagation of Hindu faith in the west does not seek or pose any challenge to social, cultural, ideological or political hegemony of the host countries. The same can not be said about missionaries - as they seek to obliterate social, cultural and political foundation of India and create a nexus with anti-india ideologies and parties - like they used to enjoy with colonial rulers - where colonialists and missionaries worked like a hand in glove to assist each other to subjugate India."

This is BS. Hindus have no problem availing of education from Christian institutions, learning English and getting jobs abroad and articulating their views at various international forums. In what way is that obliterating the 'social, cultural and political foundation of India'? Likewise, Hindus have no problem availing of excellent hospitals run by Christians in India.

Missionaries are not standing with a gun and forcing people to convert. If you follow what's actually happening today, members of the VHP and Bajrang Dal are putting an axe against someone's head and asking them to re-convert or die. The days of forced conversion are over.

Any way, I've got better things to do than waste my time debating here. Have a nice day!

#51
kela
October 26, 2008
10:22 AM

Congress has proven to be as communal as the BJP.The only way out is for a third front and daughter of the soil Mayawati becoming prime minister.All these hinduvadis will run with their tails between their legs

#52
Chandra
October 26, 2008
10:31 AM

JI

Anti-conversion laws are difficult to enforce and I accept that. Nobody can deny any individual the right to convert to any religion they choose to. But the issue here is the divisive nature of missionaries in India. Why dont we differentiate between the lies and hatred that missionaries (pentecostal in particular) are spreading across the country?

Your argument about education and healthcare is without evidence. Only 3% or less of the population visit missionary institutions. Exactly in line with the population proportion. If we use this argument, islamic institutions are doing a fabulous job as a much larger proportion visit these institutions. But people cannot accept anything islamic as civilised. On christian institutions are apparently civilising all of us...shameful

#53
kela
October 26, 2008
10:55 AM

The hate mongering terrorist Sadhvi Pragya is making more news now than all the missionaries combined till date and what does the BJP have to say for that ? it was her reaction to muslim appeasement -

#54
kerty
October 26, 2008
11:08 AM

JI

"Orissa and other BJP controlled states have had anti-conversion laws for years, yet not one person has been convicted of forcible or fraudulent conversion by any court in the country in the last 40 years."

Orissa is not ruled or controlled by BJP. Hindus are just as much mad at Orissa Govt as xians are. Missionaries usually lie low in BJP ruled states and raise their ugly heads whenever congress needs to create law and order problems in such states. Anti-conversion laws do not exist in most states and where they do exist, the enforcement is rare. These laws exist more as a political statement rather than enforcible laws with teeth.

"It is the illegal activities of the VHP and Bajrang Dal that are destroying communal harmony. Then in the wake of these activities, they justify their actions as a reaction to forced conversions. It's typical fascist ideology."

The fascist ideology would deny VHP/BD or any other Hindu organization from reacting in self-defense to missionary crusades aimed at destroying Hindus from India. Creating a nexus between missionaries and ruling establishment (ie secularists and leftists) to destroy native way of life while preventing natives from defending or reacting - that is a typical missionary modus operandi - that is how missionaries destroyed natives all over the world, everywhere they set their foot.

"The BJP are desperate to win power, by hook or by crook."

Why would BJP destablize their own governments and give congress a law and order excuse to sack them? BJP would do that to congress ruled states, not their own. It is congress that is desperate to sack BJP governments on any pretext and its sonia's loyal votebanks that are doing the bidding for congress. Congress is trying to shore up its own support base for upcoming elections - and missionaries and jehadis around the world are congress's main support base and it needs to mobilize and energize them for upcoming elections in India. BJP has to respond in kind to mobilize its own troops.

"Hindus have no problem availing of education from Christian institutions, learning English and getting jobs abroad and articulating their views at various international forums."

Less than 3% of Indians use xian education. That is because government, because of giant size of educational scope, is focussed primarily on creating 'access' aspect of the educational infrastructure rather than 'quality' aspects of education, the later has been outsourced to missionaries. Much the same reasons why Macauly wanted to brainwash Indians into babus who can do bidding for British hegemony in India. These educational 'con-version' institutions create assembly line for outputting alienated, deculturized, de-hinduised and fully convertible elites elites come out converted away from Hinduism - it allows various ideologies to plant their footprints on them and convert them from their native culture and way of life.

"Hindus have no problem availing of excellent hospitals run by Christians in India"

As per Chandra, it is less than 3% who use it. Lots of Hindu organizations too run many charity and welfare projects too, but they get demonized as sinners while missionaries who have hidden agenda get glorified as saints.

"The days of forced conversion are over."

You are damn right. Hindus will not let up until missionaries are put out of business.

#55
commonsense
October 26, 2008
11:28 AM

JI:

""What people like you and Chandra really want to do is control people's thought patterns, which is a totally futile goal.""

well put! good for you for making this point, even though it will not get thru to the folks who need it the most

#56
Chandra
October 26, 2008
11:31 AM

Comment 55

...and the pope's sidekick wades in....

#57
commonsense
October 26, 2008
11:39 AM

JI:

""It's a shame, in a purportedly secular democratic country, that Christians in Orissa have become refugees in their own land, but people like Chandra are more concerned about some anti-Hindu statements on the internet.I think a certain inner bigotry underlies attitude""

Once again, well put! I don't have to re-type the same thoughts.

And Chandra's response, like a good accountant (munshiji), is entire predictable, ie. keeping a tally of who makes how many pro-Hindu, anti-Hindu, Pro-Christian, anti-Christian etc. etc.

Chandra to JI:

""I think it is shameful that in your last 3 comments not once have you condemned Christian fundamentalism.""

The fundamental problem (the "original sin""??) is the very first sentence of this article:

""Our Liberal news channels have been spewing hatred against Hindus""

It's that adoption of the position, "are you with us or against us" (famous lines) regardless of who that "us" and the "öther" happens to be, sets up the agenda of spewing hatred.

Chandra, Kerty and others might pretend that they are simply "reacting" to some other action, but it is indeed a crying shame that educated folks are (perhaps deliberately) missing the forest for the trees (or was it the other way around??) and contributing to at least froth and foam if not actual hatred in our country.

#58
commonsense
October 26, 2008
12:01 PM

chandra:

""and the pope's sidekick wades in...."'

funny :). i was hoping you would place my somewhat higher up in the ranks!

#59
commonsense
October 26, 2008
12:08 PM

Chandra:

""But people cannot accept anything islamic as civilised.""

????

#60
kerty
October 26, 2008
12:13 PM

CS

Ok. I will promote the rank from sidekick to maverick - for working across both fences - both Missionaries and Jehadis.

#61
commonsense
October 26, 2008
12:18 PM

relieved! me a maverick!

#62
commonsense
October 26, 2008
12:22 PM

oops! me thought comment #60 was from chandra and inadvertently broke my own rule of ignoring kerty. mavericks do that sometimes

#63
Chandra
October 26, 2008
01:52 PM

CS

...and not one said on the hatred by missionary organisations (comment 34/35/36)...

#64
commonsense
October 26, 2008
03:14 PM

Chandra #63:

Munshiji, you can install a pro-hindutva and anti-hindutva automatic counter, just like those counters that count hits on blogs. then you would have more time to focus on your thekedaari for hinduism, instead of focussing on menial jobs such as counting.

#65
RJ
URL
October 26, 2008
03:38 PM

Jai Hind!!

That's pretty cool. I think I'm going to start ending all my articles on Blogcritics with "USAUSAUSA!!"

#66
Chandra
October 26, 2008
03:41 PM

CS-64

:-). As usual, no condemnation of hatred against hindus.....just another diversion by calling me names :-)

#67
Chandra
October 26, 2008
03:45 PM

RJ

Why, was George Washington shouting USAUSAUSA while fighting the British?

#68
commonsense
October 26, 2008
03:57 PM

chandra,

munshiji isn't "calling names" at least not in my register! munshi premchand was a great writer. and all munshis are hard workers when it comes to trivial bean-counting while missing the big-picture. Now when you call me "the pope's sidekick", now THAT'S calling me names, but I don't get upset; except that you should have called me the pope's "front-kick", not "side-kick" :-

As for condemning or praising any group, not being a thekedaar of any group, I leave that job to many other worthy contenders who cannot imagine a non-sectarian world out there.

#69
Chandra
October 26, 2008
04:02 PM

CS

The challenge is to be able to be neutral. That you are not.We have discussed that before. You are anti-Hindu....

#70
kerty
October 26, 2008
06:06 PM

CS

"not being a thekedaar of any group, I leave that job to many other worthy contenders"

In all the threads dealing with missionaries and jehadis, who provides the biggest thekedaari of them? Whose posts are focussed exclusively on attacking those who provide counter POV against missionaries and jehadis? And pursuing such posts as well as posters aggressively and disingenuously, and often at a very personal level? And than turn around to pose as something else and sell us something else? Now it is your prerogative to be what you are and oppose whatever you may choose, but please, do not obscure what is so plainly obvious. You hail santa clause, when plain clothes is all we see.

#71
commonsense
October 26, 2008
06:17 PM

chandra:

""The challenge is to be able to be neutral.""

I totally agree. And you failed that important challenge/test, according to your own standards, when you began that article with the sentence:

""Our Liberal news channels have been spewing hatred against Hindus for the last few weeks...""

This is not being "neutral" anybody with a quarter of a brain still functioning, can see that, regardless of your attempt at devising a bean-counter that suppposedly keeps track of who utters how many anti or pro-"Hindu" utterances per week.



#72
kaffir
October 26, 2008
06:25 PM

Well, well, well. I'm willing to bet $10 that all those defending xtians in India would also turn around and criticize racist comments in the US against Obama.
The core of the argument wrt India seems to be "enemy of my enemy is my friend."

Nice. Keep providing entertainment. :)

#73
commonsense
October 26, 2008
06:30 PM

kaffir,

i don't get it (it happens to me all the time). i happen to be neutral, even though others cannot see it.

but, can you expand a bit further on what you mean?? (in order to provide me with fuel for more entertainment for you) :-

#74
commonsense
October 26, 2008
06:31 PM

kaffir,

i don't get it (it happens to me all the time). i happen to be neutral, even though others cannot see it. racism is racism regardless of the country in question.

but, can you expand a bit further on what you mean?? (in order to provide me with fuel for more entertainment for you) :-

#75
Chandra
October 26, 2008
09:21 PM

CS

It appears, CS is one attribute missing in your argument. If I accused our media of being anti-hindu, why is that not being neutral. I also said in multiple posts that our elite are anti-muslim and I also said that I support a ban of all religious fundamentalist organisations - Missionaries and Bajrang Dal included.

#76
Naveen Roy
URL
October 27, 2008
03:07 AM

Chandra my man! Cool down, I am not frothing at the mouth here. Neither am I saying that you are! You are just a lonely bigot somewhere who dreams of making it big in the blogosphere. But I appreciate it, you are getting there....look at how many stoopid comments you get.....hats off my man!

#77
Sumanth
October 27, 2008
07:37 AM

Media is supposed to be neutral in serious issues.

When there is suppression of truth in media, people go to extremists like Bajrang Dal once they can not tolerate the non-sense in the main stream media.

All religions are inherently intolerant.

So, nations have to rethink their "religious freedom" policies.

Most countries of the world curtail religious freedom due to the same reason that religions created conflicts in past and religions do not take responsibility for whatever they do or say.

Religions sometime can be dangerous to society as well. Most religions have a violent past.

So, why should there be so many free lunches provided to religions and their leaders?

It is better to Convert people to Atheism or make people read and belong to all religions. Otherwise, this nuisance will continue......

From Crusades, Jihads, Mahabharats to modern day terrorisms and proxy wars....all have religious backing. Yet they all claim that they are very peaceful and tolerant. Fucking hypocrites....

Looks like the faithful religious are the biggest criminals the world has ever produced.

So, just convert all the "healing" tricks into a scientific text books and finish off all the religions in the world.

============
Otherwise, deal with every religion producing its own brand of suicide bombers in our streets and neighborhoods.
============

#78
commonsense
October 27, 2008
09:08 AM

chandra,

i get your drift. eventually even i do! yes, just because my nick is cs, don't take it literally man...i mean, use some cs when looking at self-advertizements!

#79
commonsense
October 27, 2008
11:32 AM

Kaffir:

""Well, well, well. I'm willing to bet $10 that all those defending xtians in India would also turn around and criticize racist comments in the US against Obama.""

That's one way of looking at it, Kaffir and Chandra. Another way could possibly be:

I bet all those who are currently frothing and foaming about "Our Liberal news channels have been spewing hatred against Hindus"" would also get upset, and rightly so, at extreme Christian groups and racist groups accusing the so-called liberal media (NYT, Washington Post) etc. of carrying out a vendetta against Christians and even against America and accusing Obama of anti-Americanism. aka known as Double standards or doublespeak.

the point you ask: there is no organized media or other conspiracy against "Hindus" in India, nor against "Christians" nor against the spirit of America, in the USA. Unless one is susceptible to stretches of paranoid lack of imagination.

#80
commonsense
October 27, 2008
11:41 AM

Naveen Roy:

""You are just a lonely bigot somewhere who dreams of making it big in the blogosphere.""

Naveen, i think you are stretching it a bit too far. Chandra, as yet, is not a bigot, although, like most human beings, in the midst of strife, conflict and generalized crap, he feels pressured to stand up for what he considers to be "his community". Emotions that are not difficult to fathom, but the very emotions that are exploited to the hilt by the thekedaars of so-called communities - be they thekedaars of Islam, Christianity, Hinduism or whatever group. Go easy on Chandra. The more you label him a bigot (a personal attack by the way), the more he will gravitate towards the thekedaars of his imaginary community and will begin to imagine organized conspiracies by the "liberal media", secularized Hindus, basically anyone that espouses commonsense that is most needed in times of manufactured emotional polarization and hatred from all sides.

In other words, Chandra is not quite yet squarely in the company of certified bigots who haunt DC, and he is still not totally deaf to the eminently sane appeal of commonsense :-

#81
Chandra
October 27, 2008
11:59 AM

Naveen Roy

Trust you are speaking about yourself- Bigot and all :-). All the best....

#82
commonsense
October 27, 2008
04:04 PM

chandra,

name-calling is fun, but counterproductive (no, not as in productivity in counting/keeping tally of, munshiji-like, who said what about which community or religion :-

#83
Naveen Roy
URL
October 27, 2008
04:28 PM

# Chandra - guess that did amount to a personal attack and I apologise if so.....

# CS - Thanks for pointing that out...

# Me - no more fodder....

#84
commonsense
October 27, 2008
05:23 PM

naveen,

as veteran of personal attacks (delivery and receipt)....i thought it was my duty to bring it to attention.

#85
commonsense
October 27, 2008
08:20 PM

apparently some neo-nazi, defenders of so-called "white america" were planning on killing obama and other blacks. as they, the guys who got arrested today put it:

"We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children" and to the eighth letter of the alphabet, H. Two "8"s or "H"s stand for "Heil Hitler."

They have never explained, in a logical manner, as to how exactly immigrants and non-whites in America are threatening the security and future of "white children" in america. The constitution does not say that America is white or should stay white and must be stopped from becoming non-white.

Similarly, the Indian constitution does not say that India is "Hindu" and must stay as such. The difference between "religion" and "white" does not matter, because both are code-words for so-called communities.

The immigration of non-whites to America is viewed by these idiots (dangerous idiots!) as a "dilution" of the so-called essence of America. The conversion issue is also construed by the BD idiots as the "dilution" of the essence of India. Both are idiots. At the end of the day, if the rule of law is upheld, it does not matter if America is predominantly non-white or India is predominantly non_hindu, as long as basic human dignity and rights are upheld. For these neo-nazi thugs, immigration is the same as "conversion" since from their perverted point of view, it dilutes the proportion of so-called "real whites". And yes, they do feel that the "liberal" media is against "real whites", just as defenders of so-called "hindu" interests in India feel that the "liberal" media and those who are secular, are "against Hindu interests".

Kaffir, this is an appropriate comparison, in my genuinely humble opinion. If anyone values genuinely human values, it matters not whether the USA becoms less white or lily white, or whether India becomes less Hindu or more Hindu. There is no natural law that dictates this. We are all human. That is the point of secular humanism, not an issue of bean counting as to who is in favour of hinduism, christianity, islam or against the same.

#86
commonsense
October 27, 2008
08:25 PM

Chandra:

""Missionaries Have Little Impact on Indian Society""

but quite a lot of impact on Chandra.

#87
commonsense
October 27, 2008
08:34 PM

link to today's news about the american bajrang dal:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081027/ap_on_el_pr/skinhead_plot

#88
commonsense
October 27, 2008
08:38 PM

oops, redundant perhaps, but here's the link to the story about the american bajran dal:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081027/ap_on_el_pr/skinhead_plot

#89
kerty
October 27, 2008
09:21 PM

CS


What was Truman doctrine all about but to keep undesirables off the hemisphere? Immigration and laws in America are already built around keeping what it views as undesirables off America. It will not tolerate communists, jehadists or anybody who is deemed hostile to its system on its soil. It will not permit anybody to create votebanks out of them. Whatever usa may not perceive as its national interest or sees as a threat to its hegemony, it criminalizes it, declares it as terrorist, fights them with bloody wars. That is why we do not get to see street agitations in America, because its laws and wars take care of it and people do not have to hit the streets to get it done. We see contrasts in India because it is communists, jehadists and missionaries who occupy the seat of power and get to frame laws to entrench themselves and keep the Hindus out. Unlike whites in america, hindus do not have power in India, hindus do not control laws or politics in India. India's Truman doctrine is aimed at keeping hindus at bay while embracing every anti-hindu fundamentalist. That is the essence of secular humanism in India.

#90
kerty
October 27, 2008
09:35 PM

CS #88

If they target Hindus, they would be declared secular humanists in India. Manmohan singh would announce welfare schemes for them and Arjun singh would declare reservations for them in order to wean them away from violence and address root causes. To humanize them, Mahesh Bhatt would make movies scripting them as lover boys dancing with latest heroines. And CS would defend them right here.

#91
commonsense
October 27, 2008
10:20 PM

the birds and the bees

#92
commonsense
October 27, 2008
10:21 PM

the birds and the bees indeed

#93
Chandra
October 27, 2008
10:34 PM

Naveen

Apology accepted.

regards

#94
kaffir
October 27, 2008
11:57 PM

CS # 85,

My point was that the same evangelicals, who are criticized for spreading bigoted views in the US (e.g. against Obama) are defended in India for spreading their message of superiority among the tribals. If your explanation works for you, great. It doesn't hold any water for me though.

I would have more respect for people if they flat-out mentioned that their main reason for defending the evangelicals' practices in India is motivated by their hatred/dislike of Hindutva/Hinduism, rather than any love of evangelical Christians. But it's more entertaining to read their pretzel logic. :)

BTW, you provide enough entertainment as it is, giving you more fuel for entertainment would be quite unfair to others. ;)

#95
kela
October 28, 2008
12:01 AM

Orissa State Home Ministry report- No foreign missionary active in Orissa,no conversions taken place in the last 7 years.
This clearly proves Chandra has been making bogus claims and spreading lies.I have already reported this article to the humans rights commission.I shall be reporting to more organisations.This witch-hunting of missionaries and persecution of christians must stop.Chandra has no more credibility.

#96
Chandra
October 28, 2008
01:31 AM

Kela-95

Aren't you lying?

The report refers to some towns of one district, Kendrapara and not the entire state of Orissa



#97
kela
October 28, 2008
02:06 AM

the coastal areas where the hinduvadis alleged conversions where happening with missionary support.Nevertheless exposes yours and their lies

i quote from report - "The district unit of RSS had alleged that these coastal areas have turned into the hub of missionaries' activities and added that the local administration despite being apprised of it has turned blind eye to the unsavoury episode.

The inquiry conducted by Revenue and Tehsil officials maintained that no resident from Tikayatnagar, Baghamari, Amaravati, Pravati, Garta, Radhamalipur, Banipala, Keruanpalli and Kanakanagar embraced Christianity since 1998."

#98
Chandra
October 28, 2008
04:15 AM

Kela

Again,I guess your mis-representation is an excellent example of how missionaries work. Here is the part of report you did not share with all of us :-)

"Kendrapara (Orissa), Oct 27 (PTI) No foreign missionary is active in coastal pockets of Orissa's Kendrapara district nor has there been any instance of conversion during past seven years, an official report submitted to the state Home Department said here today."

The report clearly refers to coastal parts of Kendrapara. Your first post claims it is the entire state of Orissa. Why would you mis-represent unless you and your missionaries have something to hide? Excellent example of missionary fraud.

#99
kela
October 28, 2008
05:56 AM

Chandra, I only quoted the headline news item from PTI.
The Orissa govt made the inquiry after demands from RSS,VHP etc which related those specific areas.I am sure if they wanted to cover the entire Orissa State result would be the same

#100
commonsense
October 28, 2008
08:59 AM

kaffir:

""BTW, you provide enough entertainment as it is, giving you more fuel for entertainment would be quite unfair to others. ;)""

point taken! a court jester such as me must not monopolize the DC entertainment sector {)

((flat out though: no missionaries nor evangelicals, nor even any religious types, missionaries or not have ever been supported by this not anti-religious but a-religious jester, not even in jest :)))

#101
VICTORJOHNSON.K
October 28, 2008
09:55 AM

Dear Shameless Chandra!
How shamelessly you have criticised about Christian missionaries. People like you will ask your own mother "What have you done for me?"
HAve you ever visited CMC Hospital in Vellore a living testimony of the Good work done by missionaries. Dr.Ida Scudder, an American Doctor came to India and saw the poor women dying during their pregnancy, and no female Doctors to take care of them. Today this hospital in in the top 10 Medical centers in India.
More than half of our Great leaders, Top business men are Aulumni of Christian institutions. The grand daughter of our finance minister is studying in a Christian convent in Channai.
Where did Mr.Raj Thackeray study.
Havent you heard of Loyola College, Sacred Heart colleges- can you stand infront of their impeccable standards.
My dear friend Christianity is sacrifice. Just because of our tolerance and kindness dont think you can write anything.
The Education system started by Missionaries is helping us still. Today An Indian Officer of Merchant Navy gets much more than Chinese or other Asian counterparts. I have travelled all over the world.
Stop writing nonsense and waste your time, spreading evil and My friend dont loose your Precious Soul!
God Bless you

#102
A Bharatiya
October 28, 2008
10:35 AM

Always remember:

Satyameva Jayate nanritam (Truth alone triumphs, not falsehood).

A crime is a crime, no matter who did it and against whom. But in todays secular India, crimes agianst chrsitians and muslims (true or untrue)are crimes, but crimes against Hindus (even 100% true) are not crimes.

Rape to a nun or rape to an another woman, both are crimes. So, what is so special about case of a nun, and not other womens? Are others womens, say from Hindu society, less women to get justice?

The game christians, with western support, playing in India against Hindus, will very badly hurt them. Christians will isolate them and live in ghettos. And they will always remain as inferior brown christians, whom whites only love to uses as slaves. Till recently, no Hindus ever had any bad feelings with christiains in India. This is very fast changing.

#103
kela
October 28, 2008
10:51 AM

Far from christians poking fun at hindus look at what your very indian american hindus engage -http://www.wwe.com/content/media/video/vms/smackdown/2008/april8-14/6851130?zone=smackdown_thegreatkhali

khali and his entourage make fun of the Ganges and Mahatma gandhi

#104
Gill
October 28, 2008
12:24 PM

#2 JI

>>>>>India is a multi-religious, multi-ethnic, multi-lingual nation. <<<<<<<<

So is the entire world. Have you ever checked the countries around India.....

Pakistan - official languages - Balochi, Pashto, punjabi sindhi, siraki, english
religious minorities - Hindus, christians, sikhs, parsis, ahmadis, buddhists, jews, bahais and animists, shia..

Bangladesh - similar as above

Afghanistan - official languages - dari, farsi, pashto, hazaragi, balochi, nuristani, hindko.....
Ethnic groups - pashtun, tajik, hazara, uzbek, aimak, turkmen, baloch....
Religious minorities - sunni, shia, hindus, sikhs, bukharan jews

Iran - Official languages - Persian, Azeri, Kurdish, Mazandarani, Gilaki
Ethnic group - persian, azeris, gilaki, mazandarani, kurds, arabs, baluchi, lurs, turkmens......
Religious minorities - Bahais, Mandeans, Hindus, Yezdis, Yarsanis, Zoroastrians, Jews, Christians

Can you name me one nation that is not "India is a multi-religious, multi-ethnic, multi-lingual nation" ????

Ofcourse christian Vatican and Islamic Saudi arabia are exceptions.......

>>>>It can only survive as a secular nation.<<<<

Secularism is and was never a factor that made India...it was only added in the in mid 70's by Indira's congress as reward for communists for their support for emergency (all constitutional rights were taken away from the citizens).

#105
commonsense
October 28, 2008
01:20 PM

chandra, naveen roy, kaffir,

i sincerely believe that it does no help to question others' motives, ie. who is a bigot, who is pro-hindu, anti-hindu, pro-christian etc. all of us are responding, albeit from very different perspectives to a major challenge that we face and will continue to face. I come across as implying (dubious) motives etc. but that was not my intention, at least when it comes to chandra and kaffir. (when it comes to kerty, gill, ruvy, desh and man singh who seems to have fallen off the radar, i do distrust their motives and their claimed goal of engaging in a discussion with integrity. Not a personal attack, but just an observation which may or may not be irrelevant)

#106
A Bharatiya
October 28, 2008
06:00 PM

Missionaries are Colonialists

Excerpts from Russian news, english dot pravda dot ru

Christian missionaries make no secret of the fact that they use medical services, education, and employment opportunities to lure impoverished indigenous populations throughout the world into conversion to Christianity.

Organized religions are inherently POLITICAL organizations. There is a fundamental difference between the financial enterprise and political machinations of an organized religion versus a mass of independent, unaffiliated believers, philosophers, and mystics who do not support any organized religion.

The religious and cultural Imperialism performed by missionaries nearly always goes hand-in-hand with political and economic Imperialism. Christian missionaries often work in partnership with the CIA, with the US government, and with wealthy corporations to subvert the religion, the culture, the economy, and the politics of vulnerable indigenous populations. The CIA often uses planes owned by Christian missionary organizations and flown by Christian missionary pilots to smuggle drugs, arms, and prisoners.

Indigenous people who take advantage of the privileges provided by the missionaries and convert to Christianity partake in a social organization that uses foreign wealth as a tool to eliminate the indigenous culture and replace it with Christianity.

Considering the aggressive, insidious, and highly political nature of Christian missionary programs, the banning of non-Moslem religious preaching by Moslem governments makes sense.

When the Hindus of India rise up in riot and drive out the Christian missionaries and the Christian 'cash converts', they are doing what the Iraqi, Afghani, and Palestinian Freedom Fighters are doing. They are protecting themselves and their indigenous culture from wealthy and unscrupulous invaders who have no respect for them or for their culture.

If Christian missionaries want to come to India and try to make converts to Christianity, let them come with empty pockets and compete on a level playing field. And if most of the locals don't want the missionaries interfering with their traditional way of life, they have the right to make the missionaries and their converts leave.

Note: To read the whole article, search in the google Missionaries are Colonialists

#107
kerty
October 28, 2008
08:10 PM

A Bharatiya #106

Thanks for the excerpt.

Here is the link for full article

Missionaries are colonialists.

http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/21-10-2008/106593-missionaries_colonialists-0

#108
commonsense
October 28, 2008
08:27 PM

editors,

the rest of the rant from "a bharatiya" is just fine, as in it's just like any rant, so no surprises. however, perhaps this paragraph should not be there. perhaps it should, but just my thoughts, since it could be interpreted as hate-speech with regards to the certainty the poster has about "cash converts" and what their fate presumably should be: (it also clearly tries to instigate "riots", even though I presume this will have little effect on folks with commonsense):

""When the Hindus of India rise up in riot and drive out the Christian missionaries and the Christian 'cash converts', they are doing what the Iraqi, Afghani, and Palestinian Freedom Fighters are doing. They are protecting themselves and their indigenous culture from wealthy and unscrupulous invaders who have no respect for them or for their culture.""

#109
commonsense
October 28, 2008
08:35 PM

Wishing everyone a very Happy Diwali/Deepavali. May this day bring peace, harmony and joy to you, your family and friends.


CS

#110
Chandra
October 28, 2008
09:03 PM

Victor Johnson

Your arguments are not correct. A CMC in Vellore makes up only for a very small proportion of inexpensive healthcare in India. There are 20 other organisations like NIMHANS or AIIMS that are largely supported by Hindu tax payers. It does not mean that these should be example of Hindu greatness of some sort. Eveerybody is doing what they should.

As far as the educational institutions are concerned, your examples are actually an embarassment. Not because these institutions are bad or something but simply because these institutions donot serve the poor, they serve the Elite in India. If missionaries are meant to doing good, how come most of the students who study in their schools come from well-off homes.

Secondly, it is not that missionaries are blessed by some extraordinary gift of managing educational institutions. As a marketer, I do notice that the best missionary schools are also the oldest. It is difficult to find an absolutely new, non-brand extension of an institution that has the same brand image as some of the names you mentioned.

To summarise, I think missionaries are doing us no great favours and that their absence will not be felt at all. In fact, with their primtive religious bias, it serves us all that religious organisations are not allowed to run educational institutions at all.

#111
commonsense
October 28, 2008
09:35 PM

Chandra:

""A CMC in Vellore makes up only for a very small proportion of inexpensive healthcare in India. There are 20 other organisations like NIMHANS or AIIMS that are largely supported by Hindu tax payers. It does not mean that these should be example of Hindu greatness of some sort. Eveerybody is doing what they should.""

Both Victor Johnson and Chandra are turning bizarre...."Christian" vs. "Hindu" medicare!?? what the FISH is all I can say

#112
Gill
October 28, 2008
09:39 PM

CS
>>>(when it comes to kerty, gill, ruvy, desh and man singh who seems to have fallen off the radar, i do distrust their motives and their claimed goal of engaging in a discussion with integrity. Not a personal attack, but just an observation which may or may not be irrelevant)<<<<

Mutual feelings!!!
"integrity" in discussion!!! I hope you are working on it....

#113
Chandra
October 28, 2008
09:42 PM

CS

"""Christian" vs. "Hindu" medicare!?? """

Please read properly!!!

#114
kela
October 28, 2008
09:56 PM

Chandra"HIndu taxpayers...."
considering 60% of India's population is below pverty level there seem to be more hindus sucking out govt benefits than paying taxes.Christians on the other hand being the more affluent lot end up bearing the burden

#115
commonsense
October 28, 2008
10:03 PM

Chandra, i did read carefully:

""There are 20 other organisations like NIMHANS or AIIMS that are largely supported by Hindu tax payers.""

who the fish are ""Hindu tax payers" or non-Hindu taxpayers? Do you and Victor have any idea how ridiculous you both sound. Obviously not, otherwise you wouldn't sound so ridiculous.

#116
commonsense
October 28, 2008
10:10 PM

i am sure that chandra and victor have the best intentions...i have no doubt about your sentiments, but, seriously now, what about your brains?

(to ask gill the same question would be redundant since the answer is self-evident)

#117
commonsense
October 28, 2008
10:13 PM

CS:

""(to ask gill the same question would be redundant since the answer is self-evident)"

I mean, it's pretty obvious that gill is way smarter, the big-brains, when compared to us lesser mortals (minus kerty, ruvy and desh who are in the same league as him)

#118
kela
October 28, 2008
10:14 PM

I agree CS,looks like they really messed up his head in Gurukul

#119
commonsense
October 28, 2008
10:21 PM

oh, was gill in gurukul kangri. no wonder! it figures. thanks kela! this info helps.

#120
commonsense
October 28, 2008
10:24 PM

good night folks. enough of brain salad surgery (emerson, lake and palmer) for the day!

#121
Gill
October 28, 2008
10:30 PM

Its amazing to see the mindset of people like Victor Johnson. They all come with a self induced conviction that before Missionaries and their foot soldiers like Macaulay there were no educational institutions in India. They are propagating that people of India had no sciences, literature or schools of thoughts. They civilized us by giving us Christian values and virtues and above all a notion of faith and God.... in short Indians were uncivilized and lost souls. And strangely for some fetish and weird reason these people always claim a higher moral and rightious ground.

But do they really have one..... Missionaries and their faith is best summed by 17th and 18th century western thinkers

French Philosopher Voltaire - "'Christianity is the most ridiculous, the most absurd and bloody religion that has ever infected the world'."

Thomas Jefforson - "Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, find, imprisoned: yet we have not advanced one inch towards humanity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support error and roguery all over the earth'"

James Madison in 1810 decalared " during almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution"

Thomas Paine said "what is it the Bible teaches us? - Rapine, Cruelty, and Murder"

And that is very true in India today because of their fanatic zeal to spread word of their God, faith and prophet they are doing what they did historically in other lands. I guess it hurts the pride of this Institution of missionaries that what they did in Americas and other pacific and African lands they couldn't do in India. And sadly it looks like they think that it is an unfinished business. They look at India as breeding ground for the 21st century.

It was only when these missionaries were kicked out of their own lands because of their fanaticism, criticism, atrocities and evil acts that they started venturing towards areas like India. I guess initially in these lands they had no fear of any criticism, law or punishment. They worked hand in hand with the colonists. It served both parties well, in short "partners in crime".

Does anyone remember India and its people inviting or asking missionaries for help???? Does India need missionaries to save Indian soul and bring them out of darkness???? More over does India has need for an institution that has been rigorously criticized in their own lands by their own people for their institutionalized convictions and acts????/?

Lastly for people like Victor Johnson India owes nothing to missionaries except of course evil acts like "goa inquisition" and countless atrocities against the local Indians in the name of the church.

#122
Chandra
October 28, 2008
11:57 PM

CS -115

As usual, your impulses prevent from you reading the whole post. The rest is here...

"It does not mean that these should be an example of Hindu greatness of some sort. Everybody is doing what they should"

#123
kela
October 29, 2008
01:01 AM

yet i.5 billion hindus are a drain on the exchequer

#124
Dark Lord
October 29, 2008
01:43 AM

@chandra 112

I fail to get it. If AIIMS is supported by government, then it is Indians tax payers money, whose tax payers would include people of all religions. Indirect taxes will mostly spread over population and economic well being. Corporate direct taxes cannot be classified according to religions. Personnel taxes in India is paid by the minuscule salaried class which constitute a very small % of total population.

#125
kerty
October 29, 2008
02:20 AM

"where do the missionaries get their money from and how much do they get? Available information lends credence to public apprehensions. Thus it is noted that in the year 2005-2006, these metropolitan cities, Chennai, Bengaluru and Mumbai received Rs 753.08 crore, Rs 464.09 crore and Rs 440.04 core respectively--all from foreign sources. Ananthpur district received Rs 288.01 crore and Hyderabad-Secunderabad Rs 236.08 crore" -- Excerpt from MV Kamath's article.

#126
commonsense
October 29, 2008
09:04 AM

Chandra:

""As usual, your impulses prevent from you reading the whole post. The rest is here...

"It does not mean that these should be an example of Hindu greatness of some sort. Everybody is doing what they should"""

as usual, my impulse prevents me from thinking of public institutions via the lens of Hindu vs. non-Hindu. for better or for worse, you cannot see that as a problem, and i do. perhaps a neural wiring issue. i may be wrong, but i cringe when i hear talk of hindu vs. non-hindu etc.

#127
commonsense
October 29, 2008
09:13 AM

Dark Lord:

""I fail to get it. If AIIMS is supported by government, then it is Indians tax payers money, whose tax payers would include people of all religions.""

I fail to get it too. But some people must reduce everything to religion, then caste, then region, then language etc. even when it comes to public institutions. then the same people wonder why the country is in dire straits.

#128
kerty
October 29, 2008
11:14 AM

CS #126

It is a convenient position that allows one not to question outsourcing to missionaries. Since any questioning of missionaries or Jehadi would amount to hindu vs missionaries issue, it allows one to side with the missionaries and yet pose as above the fray, non-sectarian, for harmony etc.

Your apologetics for missionaries remind me of Alcohol prohibition in Gujarat that has created outsourcing of liquor industry to underground mafia and congress party benefiting from corruption money and goon power flowing from such mafia - so every time somebody raises the issue of legalizing liquor, Congress takes out processions alleging defilement of Gandhi in Gandhi's Gujarat. As if Gandhi did not belong to all other states where alcohol is legalized. But behind Gandhigiri is Congress's dependence on Goon power and money power of underground network.

#129
Chandra
October 29, 2008
11:31 AM

CS and Dark Lord

Are you OK with the idea that every religion should go about trumpetting their contribution to Indian society through schools and colleges? That is what missionaries are doing and in my view is shameful

rgds

#130
Sujai
URL
October 29, 2008
05:55 PM

Chandra:
Not a good article. Bad show. Very narrow perspective. Fails to impress any reasonable man.

Thanks.

#131
commonsense
October 29, 2008
06:00 PM

chandra:

""Are you OK with the idea that every religion should go about trumpetting their contribution to Indian society through schools and colleges?"'

i am not comfortable with a breadkdown of how many hindus, christians, muslims, etc. and their taxes contribute or do not contribute to public institutions such as AIIMS.

#132
kerty
October 29, 2008
07:04 PM

Sujai

Unless you give reasons why what you say is so, it would not impress any reasonable person.

#133
Aditi
October 29, 2008
07:08 PM

Chandra: It is acceptable as a thinking human being to disagree with the philosophy of another religion, a religion that does not reflect your own views or ideas about what a religion should be. But to expect government bodies to reinforce your personal disagreement with a religion's tenets of propagation by issuing random "bans" is frankly preposterous. I could understand if you wanted a ban on religions torturing people into converting but "educating" them hardly strikes as evil or socially disruptive.

I attended 3 convent schools. The teachers were mixed religions, not just Christian. The students were mixed religions. We didn't attend Sunday school or have to go to church. We sang bhajans as well as songs from the bible. So convent schools aren't really "converting" all those who pass through the school gates :)

Moreover, if Christian missionaries converting people by luring them into schools is such an issue then why don't some Hindu religious organizations build a few schools to keep people Hindu? Seems like a creative and competitive approach to propagate education...while propagating religion on the side.

In fact I think the government should make it mandatory for all religious organizations to establish a school or free community library whereever they establish a big temple, church, gurdwara or mosque. Now that'll be nice, won't it?

#134
kaffir
October 29, 2008
07:34 PM

Sujai, out of curiosity, what makes you the authority on "reasonable man"?

#135
kerty
October 29, 2008
07:36 PM

Aditi

"But to expect government bodies to reinforce your personal disagreement with a religion's tenets of propagation by issuing random "bans" is frankly preposterous."

If it were merely about personal disagreements, consequences would be confined to only those individuals involved and no public interest or government interest would be at stake to ban or regulate such disagreements and choices. But missionary conversions do have ramifications beyond person involved in conversion. The fall out of conversions do give people and nation a stake in conversions.

"government should make it mandatory for all religious organizations to establish a school or free community library whereever they establish a big temple, church, gurdwara or mosque."

Religions would love to get into educational field. But I am not sure our secular establishment would welcome religion in education, unless they happen to be classified as minority-run.

#136
Aditi
October 29, 2008
08:18 PM

No, kerty, I honestly don't believe religious conversions have ramifications beyond individuals involved especially since India is a secular nation; therefore separation of religion from state. Hinduism does not have a conversion process because the religion itself is not based on propagation. Some other religions, such as Christianity and Islam are based on propagation and so you see missionaries and preachers. Each religion has its own philosophy and its OK to disagree with those philosophies but the only time, in a secular government, the state should be involved is if religion has introduced crime or illegal activity into society. As such forced conversions are banned. But to stop a religious community from establishing a school is counter productive and does nothing. It is not a crime to establish a school and so the state cannot rule against it.

btw welcoming religion itself into education may not be a wise choice. that was not what I suggested. I think the obscene amounts of money that flow into religion could I think be used towards establishing educational institutions.

#137
Chandra
October 29, 2008
08:47 PM

Aditi

I think we have a fundamental disagreement on this. I believe fundamentally that people from one religion donot have the right to spread hatred and lies against another religion. Unfortunately that is what missionaries (and many other religious bodies) are doing. The best solution is for a blanket ban of these bodies. I am sure ordinary people are wise enough to decide what religion to choose. We already have bans on alcohol and smoking advertising, no harm in extending that to missionaries who are no different from door to door advertising.

#138
Aditi
October 29, 2008
09:26 PM

Chandra: Yeah I kinda remember we discussed this a while ago and just agreed to disagree or something of the sort. Lets just leave it at that cause I do agree that forced conversions are unlawful. I do agree with this statement of yours though: "I am sure ordinary people are wise enough to decide what religion to choose" True!

Also, alcohol has shown to have a link to both health hazards and criminal activity. Smoking as we know is injurious to health. Hence a control on advertising of those two. Religion or Christianity has not been linked to health hazards or crime. :)

#139
kerty
October 29, 2008
09:27 PM

Aditi

"I honestly don't believe religious conversions have ramifications beyond individuals involved especially since India is a secular nation"

State is secular but people are not. People are religious. Conversion may not affect state as it is not bothered by religion. But because people are religious, they do get bothered by conversions - state gives them no choice or outlet but to address their concerns outside the parameters of state. The end result can not be pretty. State does have interest in maintaining communal harmony among religions. State also has interest in pre-empting demographic aggressions that may create religious-based separatism and turf wars. These struggles are real and not imaginary.


"to expect government bodies to reinforce your personal disagreement with a religion's tenets of propagation by issuing random "bans" is frankly preposterous"

I would extend the same analogy to feminism and see how preposterous it sounds. Why legislate personal disagreements within relationships with draconian gender-specific laws favoring only one gender? There are already laws against crime and violence, but yet you would expect government bodies to propagate feminist tenents by issuing random bans and criminalizations.

"So convent schools aren't really "converting" all those who pass through the school gates :)"

The conversion is not religious. It is ideological. It's 'conversion' is aimed at de-culturization, de-hinduization and de-nationalization of students so that various ideologies can vie to convert them and plant their own footprints on them and convert them into their own constituencies. Nothing wrong with it - but than secular-missionary axis should not have monopoly over it.

"I think the obscene amounts of money that flow into religion could I think be used towards establishing educational institutions"

Government already taxes people obscenely to establish educational institutions. Money belongs to people, not government. People are free to spend or donate money as they see fit. If people choose to give money to religious institutions, that is their right and freedom. Secular government already robs hindu temples and charges pilgrim taxes on hindus while offering subsidies to other religions. Missionaries launder obscene amount of money from around the world for their nefarious agenda in India - in the year 2005-2006, metropolitan cities, Chennai, Bengaluru and Mumbai received Rs 753.08 crore, Rs 464.09 crore and Rs 440.04 core respectively--all from foreign sources. Ananthpur district received Rs 288.01 crore and Hyderabad-Secunderabad Rs 236.08 crore. This is just a small sampling of obscene amount of money received by mission centers around India, year after year - government should take over that money and institutions run by missionaries. When cash-rich hindu temples have been taken over by secularists, why not missionary funds and their institutions?

#140
Chandra
October 29, 2008
09:31 PM

Aditi

Religion has been accused of accomplishing far worse things - Hatred, to start with....

PS: I am in your city and liking the stay here...

#141
Aditi
October 29, 2008
09:42 PM

Nah, thats not religion. Its people, as always. Religion, even though sometimes delusional, does have the potential to be unifying (in a communal sense) if only people could disagree as nicely as we do :))

Are you in Toledo?! I moved outta there a lil while ago. If you are, do visit the Museum Of Art. One of the best in the nation and worth the visit. Have fun.

#142
commonsense
October 29, 2008
10:51 PM

quotable quotes!

AN:

""Nah, thats not religion. Its people, as always.""

if only, this were commonsense for everyone...sigh!

#143
kaffir
October 29, 2008
10:55 PM

Religion or Christianity has not been linked to health hazards or crime.

Do you mean in India, or in general? If you ask Native-Americans in the US or Australian Aborigines, they may tell you a lot about what Christianity has been linked to and how it has affected their culture, traditions and way of life. Some of the racist attitude against Obama comes from evangelical Christians and their incorrect superior view about themselves.

#144
Aditi
October 30, 2008
11:27 AM

yes kaffir: pls read the quote CS picked out from my comment 141

"thats not religion. Its people, as always. Religion, even though sometimes delusional, does have the potential to be unifying (in a communal sense) if only people could disagree as nicely as we do "

#145
A Bharatiya
October 30, 2008
03:20 PM

Christian church is obsessed with race
Published:Oct 26, 2008
The Times, South Africa

It is a white supremacist mindset that claims "Pope Benedict XVI has created India's first woman saint".

Sister Alphonsa of the Immaculate Conception is not "India's first woman saint" but the first Christian, or more specifically Catholic, woman saint in India. India has many woman saints belonging to the homegrown faiths.

If race consciousness were not so pronounced in the Christian church, especially the Catholic church, she would have been a saint for the entire Catholic world.

After all, the media did not refer to Mohammed Siddique Khan, the mastermind of the London bombings of July 7 2005, as a British terrorist (although he was born in Britain) but as an Islamic terrorist.

Similarly, a Catholic saint, even if born in India, is a Catholic saint, not an Indian saint.

For instance, the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, although he resided in the West for a great number of years, was always described in the media as an Indian Rishi, Yogi, spiritual master, etc.

On the other hand, Swami Vidyanand is white and Bhakti Swami Thirtha Krishnapad is an African American but are revered by all Hindus, regardless of race. There is no talk of white swami or African American swami.

Another noteworthy example of the Christian obsession with race was the picture of former Miss Deaf World, the lovely Candice Morgan, sporting a symbol of Hindu affirmation, the bindi, on her forehead. On April 15 2007, in an interview on the TV1 programme Spirit Sundae, Morgan stated that she was a Christian.

Many Indian Christians have taken to sporting such symbols of Hindu affirmation in the new South Africa in order to repackage their racism as culture, in order to segregate themselves from Christians of other races, especially black Christians.

Some Indian Christians no longer want to be buried in what used to be called "sanctified ground" but choose to enter the Christian heaven via the back door, the Clare Estate Hindu Crematorium, previously regarded as a "demonic" place! These are the clever ways of racism. -- REALITY CHECK

Source: thetimes dot co dot za

#146
kela
October 31, 2008
06:29 AM

Hindus developed the caste system based on skin colour- that's institutionalised racism

#147
kerty
October 31, 2008
11:10 AM

Kela

Caste system was developed so people of different race, creed and cultural orientation can co-exist side by side and enjoy their freedom and autonomy without being encroached upon or warred upon. Why do you think syrian xians survived amidst Hindus since ancient times without being sucked into hindu fold? It was institutionalized pluralism and inclusiveness. It was not until missionaries arrived under colonial raj that caste system underwent divide and destroy politics and persecution complex. Even during the era of freedom struggle, focus of reforms was limited to untouchability and not entire caste system. It was the later compulsions of socialism and its crusade to convert caste-based order into socialist order that demonizations and conversion of caste system became political necessity. We have seen missionaries and assorted leftist ideologies vie to exploit the victimizations and destitution created during transition from caste-based order to socialist order. Missionaries and leftist ideologies have found a common cause, and a nexus.

#148
kela
October 31, 2008
12:01 PM

kerty go tell that to the low castes...they'll honour you with a garland ...of chappals

#149
kela
October 31, 2008
12:05 PM

studies have shown,states/places where missionary work has resulted in substanial proportion of christians in power/governance,like the north-east of india and kerala and goa there are fewer instances of communal riots/conflicts .

#150
A Bharatiya
October 31, 2008
03:41 PM

Who is Fooling Whom?
MV Kamath

Francis Gautier is a French journalist, born in a conservative Catholic family but is an ardent admirer of India. To the best of one's knowledge, he is independent-minded and does not belong to any party or group, be it the Bajrang Dal, the VHP, the RSS or even the BJP. Which is why an article he wrote for The New Indian Express (October 6, 2008) should command attention.
Gautier was analysing the situation in Karnataka and the reason why there was a spurt of anger against missionaries in Kanara. To quote him: "Newlife, one important western-funded missionary centre (http:/www.newlifeforce.org) began making conversions in and around Mangalore by accosting poor people... befriending them and then taking them to churches to introduce them to the Father. Upon introduction, they were paid Rs 2,500 per person and then taken to the Velankanni Shrine in Tamil Nadu, where they would get another Rs 3,000. When they finally got converted by changing their name, they got an incentive of Rs 10,000 onwards. Newlife would then give them instructions to abandon wearing the tilak on forehead, replace photos and figures of Hindu gods and goddesses with a cross etc.''

denigrated and how missionaries -- there are apparently more than 4,000 foreign Christian missionaries in India -- brainwashed the poor. It is a revealing article.

But where do the missionaries get their money from and how much do they get? Available information lends credence to public apprehensions. Thus it is noted that in the year 2005-2006, three metropolitan cities, Chennai, Bangalore and Mumbai, received Rs 753.08 crore, Rs 464.09 crore and Rs 440.04 crore respectively -- all from foreign sources. Ananthpur district received Rs 288.01 crore and Hyderabad-Secunderabad Rs 236.08 crore. Apparently, Andhra Pradesh which has a Christian Chief Minister has consistently been one of the three States to receive such mind-boggling foreign aid.
Christian leaders smilingly point that under
the Constitution, propagation of religion is legally permissible. But what the Vatican and the various protestant organizations are seeking is not so much the spread of Christian faith as much as extension of the power of the Church to undermine the cultural unity of India and break up the nation -- a trick that must be exposed by all patriotic Indians. May it be remembered that when Pope John Paul II visited India (he had been barred from China), he made the point in a public statement that in the first millennium it was Europe that was converted, in the second it was Africa, and henceforth it would be Asia's turn. It was a slap in the face of India, a predominantly Hindu country, but quiet was maintained because Hindus with a greater culture believed in the ancient dictum: atithi deva bhava -- a guest should be treated as God. Pope John could not care less, if he hurt Indian sentiments by his indiscreet comments.

The issue today is not conversion to another faith. Rather it is the deliberate move to break up India. Conversion inevitably destroys a local culture and is fundamentally subversive in content. Conversion, especially in tribal areas, leads to demographic disturbances which in turn lead to resentment. Resentment leads to violence. We condemn violence without trying to seek the reason behind it because it does not serve the interests of our secularists.

Kandhmal is an excellent example of this subversion. In 1961 the Christian population there was just under two per cent. In 1971 this rose three times to six per cent. Thirty years later, in 2001, the Christian population rose to 27 per cent. The cleavage between Christian and non-Christian tribes has widened to such an extent that it has been a cause of social antagonism and killings. Banning the Bajrang Dal would not solve the problem. It would only add to tensions, not only in Orissa but right across the country.

Christianity came to India even before it spread to Europe and it was accepted ungrudgingly. If today Christian efforts at conversion are strongly opposed it is because the loyalty of converts is turned towards Rome or to protestant evangelical centres. There is clear evidence which confirms that Christian organizations are backing terrorism and separatist movements in India's Northeast. The National Liberation Front of Tripura (NLFT) was founded in 1989, and since its inception, the NLFT has been engaged in an armed struggle to carve out a separate Christian nation of Tripura. The Baptist Church is known to back it. Christians entered Nagaland and Mizoram in the last quarter of the 19th century and this has led to the transformation of an entire culture which could lead to the isolation of an entire State from mainstream India with dire consequences.

The Protestant Church is working havoc in India while the Union Government wilfully turns its head away. In a short time we are going to have another Kashmir in the Northeast, thanks to the indifference of Sonia Gandhi-dominated Congress.

T he first step to prevent further
deterioration of the situation is
not banning the Bajrang Dal but deporting all foreign missionaries and confiscating funds sent from abroad to undermine the essential unity of India. The sinister plan of the evangelists has to be exposed. The issue is not religion; it is foreign dominance through not-too-subtle means. Under the protection of the Constitution foreign sources are determined to undermine the basic cultural structure of India, which is impermissible. They should be summarily thrown out.

The tribals of Orissa did not invite the evangelists; it is the evangelist who is imposing himself on the tribals under the protection of the Constitution. We are hung by our own petard.

Australia's Prime Minister John Howard has asked Australian Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia to leave the country. Pakistan does not permit conversion. Nor do so many other nations. There is no reason why India should suffer evangelists. The only way to stop the predatory ways of missionaries is to throw them out, bag and baggage.

What is at stake in India is not Christianity as a faith but Christianity as a political weapon to take over India by means foul. The opposition is not to a religion but to a calculating Church which is practising a silent invasion under the very umbrella of a Constitution. The UPA government -- and in the end India itself -- is being taken for a ride. India's decency is being exploited fully and there must be laughter in various evangelist centres at India's stupidity. Meanwhile, the public should demand a white paper on the evangelist invasion of India so that the truth is out.

To practise a faith, do converts need money from abroad? Who is fooling whom?

Source: The Sentinel, Guwahati, 31 Oct 2008

#151
kerty
October 31, 2008
04:16 PM

Kela

"missionary work has resulted in substanial proportion of christians in power/governance,like the north-east of india and kerala and goa there are fewer instances of communal riots/conflicts"

Missionary work has resulted in fewer instances of communal riots in America, Australia and New Zealand too. Xians there have all the powerful positions and control over government while non-converted languish in concentration camps without any power to complain or riot.

#152
kela
October 31, 2008
08:52 PM

kerty.lets talk abt India.
latest reports say hindutvadis group abhinav bharat has bangladeshi nationals among its members.This is mind-boggling news,this proves hindutva groups are nothing what they claim to be (guardians of hinduism)and are out to attain power and money through any means including terrorism.

#153
Chandra
October 31, 2008
09:51 PM


"Conversion is a life-long process. If somebody voluntarily comes forward to embrace Christ, there is nothing wrong. Nobody can come between an individual and God. But forced conversion is certainly wrong. Even offering incentives for this purpose is not right," Archbishop of Delhi Vincent M Concessao, a Catholic priest who is also the president of the Forum, told The Indian Express.
Expressing regret that some of the independent denominations and churches working in India were not accountable, Rev Concessao said they needed to get back to scriptures

#154
kela
November 1, 2008
03:15 AM

important point to note above is "some of the independent denominations and churches working in India were not accountable"
whereas the recent arrests of Sadhvi Pragya and her accomplices have shown that the mainstream hindutvadis like VHP.BJP have been patronising TERRORIST elements among them

#155
Chandra
November 1, 2008
03:29 AM

Kela 154

The police have not filed a single chargesheet, only a whole set of leaks to the media. Secondly, the police have not, even through the leaks accused of the sangh parivar of encouraging or supporting these attacks.

I think the Catholic Church is doing the right thing by carrying out an internal debate on conversions. Self-regulation is better than Govt sponsored regulation.

#156
Coco
November 1, 2008
09:27 AM

If people are being forced into Christianity by the "self-annointed/appointed" Christians, then the Christians are not following the Bible. The believers are to spread the Good News/The Gospel and move on. If the people do not accept, then fine. I spent a lot time in the north of India as well as the south. The people of the south are very bold in displaying Jesus message on their autos and trucks. Before entering a fabric store, I noticed Bible verses etched on their granite walls. Regardless of their caste, the Christians in India seem to possess the Spirit more than the Christians in the USA. I noticed that the churhes were packed with Christians in India. Beggars would line up in front of churches rather than temples to be fed with food. Maybe Hindus and Hindu priests need to feed the beggars, show more compassion on these souls, and explain Hindu scriptures to them. The Brahmin caste is too arrogant and does not seem to have much compassion or charity towards the untouchables.

Overall the people of India are a very beautiful people. They spoil you with their hospitality and feed you till you drop.

#157
kerty
November 1, 2008
10:59 AM

Coco

"Beggars would line up in front of churches rather than temples to be fed with food. Maybe Hindus and Hindu priests need to feed the beggars, show more compassion on these souls, and explain Hindu scriptures to them."

The issue of beggars is tied to prevailing economic system and religion likes to stay out of it in modern times where economics left to be shaped by ideologies rather than religion or caste system. Temples and devotees do not like to be bothered about worldly matters. Temples are not proper venues for worldly matters.

If temples are attracting large number of beggars and poverty has to be rescued by temples, than it is a symptom of a deeper systemic breakdown in economic arena - that suggests those secular institutions and economic paradigm that are responsible for economic welfare of masses have broken down and need to be repaired and upgraded. Temples do not preach - they merely hold mirror and give Darshana. What people take from Darshana and what they do with it, is entirely left to people. Showcasing human condition including Poverty is also Darshana. Devotees are supposed to shape life around them based on Darshana - but they do not always have control over economic models that produce poverty and beggars are in such a large numbers, they would create compassion fatigue to any die-hard bleeding heart. Try giving alms to any beggar and you would be swarmed and overwhelmed by dozens and hundreds of them. When temples start feeding the hungry, they attract thousands and lakhs of them from all around the surrounding regions overwhelming the temple facility and its resources. So both temples and devotees have developed compassion fatigue for beggars flocking to them - right place for beggars to flock is secular institutions and demand economic paradigm that is capable of producing wealth to meet the and social paradigm that is capable of providing opportunities for wealth creation for all.

Unlike churches, temples are merely prayer halls. There is virtually no preaching there. Temples are not involved in imparting any education or learning. Temple priests are ritualists and who perform their duties mechanically. They are not highly learned folks and their own understanding of scriptures would be anything but scholarly. They may be able to recite few stories and hymms but that would be the extent of their expertise. Most of them can not explain even some of the rituals they specialize in. So education and knowledge of scriptures comes only to those who seek it. Temple is not such a place. Prayers and darshana is all that temples offer.

#158
A Bharatiya
November 6, 2008
09:49 AM

'Goa Inquisition was most merciless and cruel'

...historians consider the Goa Inquisition the most merciless and cruel ever developed. It was a machinery of death. A large number of Hindus were first converted and then persecuted from 1560 all the way to 1812!

http://www.rediff.com/news/2005/sep/14inter1.htm

#159
kela
November 9, 2008
10:11 AM

The Syrian Christians of India are among the first christians in the world.Christianity arrived in India even before it reached Europe.

#160
VICTORJOHNSON.K
November 9, 2008
12:44 PM

Dear Friends and my dear Gill,
We have fought enough in the name of religion. On behalf of dear Chandra I apologise to all of you for starting this topic. This is a never ending one. One thing we must remember is we are Indians, and must remain the same always No matter what faith we belong to. If we dont fight like this and work for our Nation, Pay our taxes One fine day we will be a Super power. Let us come out of the garbage bins, we have dug enough crap!
Good day to all of you.

#161
Chandra
November 9, 2008
05:30 PM

Victor

You have no right to speak for myself or any other Indians. Speak for yourself and if you have an apology to offer for some reason, please say so.

#162
commonsense
November 9, 2008
06:27 PM

Chandra:

""Victor

You have no right to speak for myself or any other Indians.""

completely agree and then some! however, might i gently suggest that you should too speak just for yourself, and not for an entire community, be it Hindu, Muslim, Christian or Martian? (Hint: the very first sentence of your article about anti-Hindu bias being spewed?)

"Ideology is like bad-breath; we are never aware of our own, but always of others' ideology"

#163
VICTORJOHNSON.K
November 10, 2008
03:02 AM

Hi Chandra, When I have no rigt to speak for you, Who the hell gave the right to speak about missionaries. Looks like you are a person not gentle enough to understand my polite message. I am not ready to get into shit with you, I do not have the time. May be your ego and age prevents you from being gentle and care for the country. Ok my friend always remember Love begets Love, Hatred begets Hatred.
Always remember Christianity is Compassion. Have you seen Jesus posing with Swords, spears etc. If the Church has used violence in the past, they have not followed Jesus 100 %
So what do you want to prove? You are right?
You think this kind of topic will end like this?
This will keep on going. Have fun!!!!!

#164
VICTORJOHNSON.K
November 10, 2008
11:01 AM

Dear Friends,
Who is a Missionary? The classic example is Dr. Ida Scudder, Mother Teressa. Not the ones who bribe poor people and convert the religion. They are not missionaries. So Which one you people are talking about.
Some one said India did not require any Missionary? No one invited them??
What was the status of India those days- Poverty, Diseases- entire villages were wiped out due to epidemic diseases, Untouchability- Dalits were not allowed in the temples? Poor medical facilities esp for pregnant women, SATI- burning the widow alive, and so on and on we can be proud of. Kind hearted persons who loved God read about our country in magazines and journals and got facinated about it. They came to help those people and save them. I fully agree with yo people that those true missionaries were very few and you can count them. And they did not change the entire country, but only in very few places.
No one is saying Missionaries changed India, We are whatever today is because of them- this is wrong.
Why this topic came into existence I do not understand, May be some one misguided Mr. Chandra.
You have mentioned some points which even as a Christian I accept, for example to convert people by bribing them I do not accept. Even Lord Jesus will not accept it.
In south India especially Tamil Nadu we accept all religions same, Since my child hood I have seen religious harmony. My mother works as a teacher in a Hindu school named after Respected Kirubananda Variyar. I have seen him sermoning in my child hood days, He never abused or hurt any other religion, and even in our Church I have never seen anyone talking about other religion in a bad manner.
Christianity has come to the lime lite in the few years due to various reasons which are obvious. As a True Christian I want to tell you that all that is happening now is very bad.
No religion must try to dominate other religion. If you go through the Holy books, the preachings are all the same. Mostly they talk about LOVE. That is what every responsible human being must try to develop and spread across the world. Now you see the world is filling with hatred's, see the Chaotic traffic we encounter, people hate each other, frustrated and honk their horns, abuse each other. Terrorists kill innocents.
I have a slight feeling that websites like this spread hatred more than the real purpose they are developed for? Spreading hatred is sowing the seed for evil, some day it will hurt us all. Imagine people killing each other, bombing each other in the Name of Unseen God????
We all know GOD is one, He created all of us, and we are his Children. If every one keeps this in mind and consider another person as his brother or sister, Millions of money and Bloodshed will be saved. God will be never happy seeing his children fighting like this!
If you go through the preachings of Jesus, mostly it is all about Love, I am sure other religions also spread the word of Love.
So dear sir, spread the word of Love, Write teachings from Gita regarding love. People will be happy to read it, and our country will be a better place to live, Think about our children? Do you want them fighting in the Name of God.
What ever valid points you have against Christianity you keep it as it is, But don't forget to spread the word of Love.
Thank you
K.V.Johnson

#165
commonsense
November 10, 2008
11:12 AM

VictorJohnson:

""What was the status of India those days- Poverty, Diseases- entire villages were wiped out due to epidemic diseases, Untouchability- Dalits were not allowed in the temples? Poor medical facilities esp for pregnant women, SATI- burning the widow alive, and so on and on we can be proud of. Kind hearted persons who loved God read about our country in magazines and journals and got facinated about it. They came to help those people and save them."

I am tempted to say that you have lost your mind, but I doubt that. Such racist drivel is part and parcel of a particular missionary mindset. And when such crap is translated into action, one cannot even imagine the damage it inflicts on everyone, including, ironically those who chose to defend such views and actions. And you, were trying to set the record right? Are you into satire and irony unlimited or just trying to whip up anti-Christian hysteria?

#166
A Bharatiya
November 10, 2008
12:23 PM

'Government attitude will end Vaishnavite culture'
By our Staff Reporter

GUWAHATI, Nov 8: The Asom Xatra Mahasabha's youth wing -- Samanwita Yuva Tirtha -- today voiced its protest against the arrival of Christian missionaries from Nagaland in the riverine island of Majuli, which is also the seat of Vaishnavite culture. The missionaries are entering the State with the support of a Nagaland group -- Chakesang.
Addressing mediapersons at a press meet in the city today, Sanmawita Yuva Tirtha general secretary Dibyojyoti Saikia today demanded immediate eviction of the missionaries and said that the lackadaisical attitude of the government will soon result in the extinction of Vaishnavite culture in the State.

It should be noted that Christian missionaries had made inroads into Majuli earlier as well. The Government had evicted the group after facing vehement protests from social and youth organizations of the island. The youth wing of the Asom Xatra Xabha today alleged that the missionaries were able to come back since the government had not taken the issue seriously.

Accusing the government of protecting the missionaries for vote bank politics, Saikia said, "A lot of Bangladeshis had also encroached upon the Xatra land of Majuli. Now Christian missionaries are also following suit. Even after facing so much protests, the Government has been unable to evict the illegal Bangladeshi immigrants. If the government does not change its attitude, it won't be able to evict the missionaries as well." He further added, "If this continues, Vaishnavite culture is bound to become extinct."

Read at sentinelassam dot com
The Sentinel, Guwahati, 9 Nov 2008
----
After transforming Nagaland for Christ, now these missionary terrorists started crusade to make Asom for christ or whole NE for christ. Asom Congress govt can't say/do anything, as Congress party is headed by a chrsitian.

#167
Chandra
November 10, 2008
07:04 PM

Victor Johnson

Where did all the missionary compassion go when you were butchering millions of people across Europe, South America and Asia? Also, Jesus may not haven pictured with swords but what were 1000s of fighters from Europe doing in Palestine during the crusades? Playing English Premier league?

There is a big difference between speaking for someone and speaking about something. You cannot speak for someone unless the person authorises you to do so. You can speak about something because the constitution allows me to do so.

"What was the status of India those days- Poverty, Diseases- entire villages were wiped out due to epidemic diseases, Untouchability- Dalits were not allowed in the temples? Poor medical facilities esp for pregnant women, SATI- burning the widow alive, and so on and on we can be proud of."

Chandra: So, what are you saying? Missionaries changed all this? You must be extremely delusional or had too much Kool Aid today. Some of the biggest famines and famine related deaths happened under the British rule and their significant allies - the Missionaries. The most comprehensive improvement of dalits, women, healthcare happended after Independence when we 'natives' came to power and not due to any great work by either the Brits or your friends, the missionaries.

"In south India especially Tamil Nadu we accept all religions same"

That is a very good thing.But do pentecostal missionaries feel the same? I dont think so at all.

#168
commonsense
November 10, 2008
07:45 PM

a pox on both your houses

#169
commonsense
November 10, 2008
08:43 PM

Multiculturalism in the United States is commonly lauded as a positive social ideal celebrating the diversity of our nation. But, in reality, immigrants often feel pressured to create a singular formulation of their identity that does not reflect the diversity of cultures that exist in their homeland. Hindu Americans have faced this challenge over the last fifteen years, as the number of Indians that have immigrated to this country has more than doubled.

In A Place at the Multicultural Table, Prema A. Kurien shows how various Hindu American organizations-religious, cultural, and political-are attempting to answer the puzzling questions of identity outside their homeland. Drawing on the experiences of both immigrant and American-born Hindu Americans, Kurien demonstrates how religious ideas and practices are being imported, exported, and reshaped in the process. The result of this transnational movement is an American Hinduism-an organized, politicized, and standardized version of that which is found in India.

This first in-depth look at Hinduism in the United States and the Hindu Indian American community helps readers to understand the private devotions, practices, and beliefs of Hindu Indian Americans as well as their political mobilization and activism. It explains the differences between immigrant and American-born Hindu Americans, how both understand their religion and their identity, and it emphasizes the importance of the social and cultural context of the United States in influencing the development of an American Hinduism.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
About the Author:
Prema Kurien is an associate professor of sociology at Syracuse University. She is the author of Kaleidoscopic Ethnicity: International Migration and the Reconstruction of Community Identities in India, which was co-winner of the American Sociological Association's 2003 Asia/Asian America book award.

#170
commonsense
November 10, 2008
10:35 PM

apologies editors, i mis-posted...the above was meant for another blogistan...

#171
VICTOR JOHNSON
November 11, 2008
10:30 AM

"I am tempted to say that you have lost your mind, but I doubt that. Such racist drivel is part and parcel of a particular missionary mindset. And when such crap is translated into action, one cannot even imagine the damage it inflicts on everyone, including, ironically those who chose to defend such views and actions. And you, were trying to set the record right? Are you into satire and irony unlimited or just trying to whip up anti-Christian hysteria?"
What record I am trying to set right? Please expain in detail?
Commonsense please wake up from your drugs and explain in detail. did you read my post completely. From your posts it is apparent that you feel that you have the greatest brain of all the folks here.

#172
VICTORJOHNSON.K
November 11, 2008
10:34 AM

"Chandra: So, what are you saying? Missionaries changed all this? You must be extremely delusional or had too much Kool Aid today. "
Victor:
Chandra please dont act like a kid. These were my exact words. Have patience to read my post fully. Babe cool down!!!!

"And they did not change the entire country, but only in very few places.
No one is saying Missionaries changed India, We are whatever today is because of them- this is wrong."

#173
commonsense
November 11, 2008
11:34 AM

victoria johnson:

"From your posts it is apparent that you have the greatest brain of all the folks here.""

everybody knows that; so you are back to stating the obvious? from your earlier wild, delusional rants? one day, you too will find a commonsensical balance, like everyone else.

#174
VICTORJOHNSON.K
November 11, 2008
12:17 PM


CS:"everybody knows that; so you are back to stating the obvious? from your earlier wild, delusional rants? one day, you too will find a commonsensical balance, like everyone else. "
Sorry Commonsense, I do agree with you. I did not read your earlier posts, I really appreciate the posts # 8, 85, 86, 108,109,116,162. Now you have my Attention !
I agree you are the greatest, But you have not clarified the following posts- #165 & 168 ,
compared to the previous sensible posts these two look odd.
I apologise for my post #171. But I request you to read my post # 164 once again carefully and in simple English correct me where I went wrong, and please explain your post # 165.
Thanks

#175
commonsense
November 11, 2008
03:54 PM

Dear Victoria Johnson,

As everyone knows, I my patience in dealing with pointless, racist drivel is almost infinite. The operative term here however, is "almost". Even I have my limits! Have a good day ma'am and good luck while saving them natives and bringing them the good news of "civilization"!

Have a good, self-righteous day, ma'am!!

#176
VICTORJOHNSON.K
November 12, 2008
01:59 AM

Dear CS,
Thank you for your patience and reply. But since when I became From Victor to Voctoria? You have performed a sex change Dr.CS!!!!!
Ok you are cleared to leave this site ,it seems your patience has run out(for nothing).
Good day to you too

#177
VICTORJOHNSON.K
November 12, 2008
02:42 AM

CS: "Are you into satire and irony unlimited or just trying to whip up anti-Christian hysteria?"

VJ : Dear CS what are you talking? I am trying to whip up??? You are in the middle of it my dear? Whipped up 176 posts ago?? Have you seen any article in this site with so many comments??
I am just trying to quell it! Because religion is a very very sensitive issue.
You are a genius, man apart from us? you will never understand this? Common man feelings!
Haven't you seen the statistics givenby Mr. A Bharatiya, blaming me for whipping up something?????
This is not going to end my dear,You will be exausted with all your fancy vocabullary!!!(especially in calling me) If you don't have patience you can QUIT.

#178
commonsense
November 12, 2008
07:50 AM

Victoria Johnson:

""You are a genius, man apart from us"

Thanks Victoria. You have good judgement, is all I can say!

#179
VICTORJOHNSON.K
November 12, 2008
11:40 AM

CS :" Thanks Victoria. You have good judgement, is all I can say!"
VJ: Are baba? I am Victor, not Victoria. Why you are making me female?????

#180
commonsense
November 12, 2008
08:28 PM

Victoria, what is wrong with being a female? are baba, trust me, females are humans too. don't worry if you are woman; it is not a disease

#181
Gill
November 12, 2008
09:32 PM

Victor Johnson
>>>>Some one said India did not require any Missionary? No one invited them??
What was the status of India those days- Poverty, Diseases- entire villages were wiped out due to epidemic diseases, Untouchability- Dalits were not allowed in the temples? Poor medical facilities esp for pregnant women,<<<<<

My friend isn't it true that missionaries did spread disease and epidemics among natives in Americas and other parts of the world in the name of their God and church..... And that is very true even in India also. What parts of India these famines occured??... british ruled areas. In these areas in collusion with the British colonist the missionaries created these conditions ...... Missionaries mission-- destroy established native religious institutions and eventually create a breeding grounds from the effected and suffering people by providing them little compassion and help......In short make people people "suffer"...and than lend them "compassionate" helping hand and thus show the power of "true" God.

Was the above mentioned a reality in India before the 19th century???????

Isn't it ironic people living in dark ages are coming to help India a rich and prosperous land and are on mission to take the poor Indians out of the darkness.....

Lets check this Hymn of St. Ephraem. This is considered as a historical proof that first missionary St Thomas came to India. Strange one can see the true traits and mission of a Missionary right from the beginning.... people coming from dark ages are calling Indian living in "painful darkness".....

"It was to a land of dark people he was sent, to clothe them by Baptism in white robes. His grateful dawn dispelled India's painful darkness. It was his mission to espouse India to the One-Begotten. The merchant is blessed for having so great a treasure. Edessa thus became the blessed city by possessing the greatest pearl India could yield. Thomas works miracles in India, and at Edessa Thomas is destined to baptize peoples perverse and steeped in darkness, and that in the land of India." -

Than came the next great missionary to India St Francis Xavier - who is credited for converting largest number of people around the world... to his credit this great Saint and missionary has the "Goa Inquisition" in India and the heinous atrocities against the natives, especially the instigation of destruction of the Hindu priestly class in Goa. His pious and Godly acts of instigating destruction of temples and idols are well known not only in India but even in Japan during his stay their

Once again I will quote the French Philosopher Voltaire who like the rest of Europe was shocked by notorious cruelty and torture of Goa Inquisition (of course initiated by great missionary St Francis Xavier), Voltaire wrote ""Goa is sadly famous for its inquisition, which is contrary to humanity as much as to commerce. The Portuguese monks deluded us into believing that the Indian populace was worshiping The Devil, while it is they who served him""

Since you claim to be working in South India and spreading the word of "True" God you must know the earliest of all missionaries that came to south India and set the trend - the Roberto de Nobili - the great evangelists .... but once again the Roberto de Nobili was and is even accused of "forgery" of vedic manuscripts... he started the trend in India of learning local native language and scriptures and than twist them to serve your "mission" and propaganda.... live among the natives adopt their customs and slowly through deception convert them (to the extent do not even call a church a church...call it by local language word for temple).....

the list can go on all Missionaries who came to India and the bottom line is all of them had and have "vested" interests and "notorious" motives......."conversion" is their goal....they all have no "respect" or regards for local faith and rituals. And this includes you Mother Teresa also.. if you have any doubts..you can read the Time Magazine interview of hers

#182
commonsense
November 12, 2008
10:09 PM

Victoria,

you have met your match in Gill. Two sides of the same demented coin. good luck to both you! all we need now is man singh. what happened to him??

#183
commonsense
November 12, 2008
10:11 PM

Gill:

""Missionaries who came to India and the bottom line is all of them had and have "vested" interests"'

strange that they were wearing vests despite the warm weather...

#184
dd
URL
November 13, 2008
05:12 AM

""I do not know of any western country where hindus are trying to convert that country into Hindu culture, take over politics, political parties or power of any western country. Hindu do not threaten the cultural, political, ideological or religious hegemony of any western countries."

Hindus are free to propagate their religion in the west, and they do (e.g. Hare Krishna movement, Deepak Chopra), but they attract very few converts. I think the intrinsic inequalities in the caste system act as a barrier."

if Hindus in New York start distributing pamphlets that said "Christianity is a corpse worshiping religion, its symbol is a stinking rotting naked bloody decaying corpse and its founder Jesus was gay because he couldn't get married." to all the Christians in New York year in and year out, how long do you think it will be before Christians in New York start retaliating? In fact when a theater in new york staged a play showing Jesus as a gay it was threatened to be burned to the ground.

#185
commonsense
November 13, 2008
03:14 PM

hey victoria johnson, where are you? pretending to be an evangelista on some other blogistan?

#186
Chandra
November 15, 2008
10:38 PM


His Majesty the king has ordered that there shall be no Brahmins in his land and that they should be banished."
"In the name of his Majesty I order that no Hindu can or shall perform marriages..."
"The marriages of the supplicants are superstitious acts or functions which include Hindu rites and ceremonies as well as cult, adoration and prayers of Hindu temples..."
"I order that no Hindu temples be erected in any of the territories of my king... and that Hindu temples which already have been erected be not repaired...'

#187
commonsense
November 15, 2008
11:56 PM

??? cracking up? take a break man, have a charminar, not kit-kat

#188
Chandra
November 16, 2008
01:25 AM

CS

That comment was by Portuguese missionaries while they were ruling Goa

#189
commonsense
November 16, 2008
12:05 PM

then they needed to have relaxed, although there was no charminar that time. but the were smoking some missionary sticks.

#190
VICTORJOHNSON.K
November 17, 2008
04:54 AM

CS: " hey victoria johnson, where are you? pretending to be an evangelista on some other blogistan?"
No dear, finally you are missing me. This is not the place for me. Let this continue. I Quit.

#191
Vinay Katiyar
November 17, 2008
07:12 AM

Dear Mr. Chandra,
I have seen your Himalayan efforts and really impressed. We (Bajrang Dal ) need dynamic persons like you. I need you. Come and Join me young man.
Vinay

#192
commonsense
November 17, 2008
08:56 AM

hey chandra?? what gives, young man??

#193
GB
November 22, 2008
11:22 AM

KIND ATTENTION MR. GILL (SARDARA)

His Name is Satnam

Author- Jagjeet J. Singh
Publisher- Author himself, 2006
Pages- 119 (paperback)
Price- not given
ISBN: 981-05-4913-X

Reviewed by G.B. Singh

Last year, upon my inquiry, Rev. James Singh of Singapore was kind enough to send me his latest book His Name is Satnam. SATNAM, the term given by Guru Nanak, is being reapplied here to mean the name of Jesus Christ. This is a comparative study of Christian and Sikh concept of salvation. Being a student of the Bible, this book caught my interest because it is the latest propaganda material on the market intended to convert the Sikhs. Rev. James Singh heads a ministry called "Re-Fire." His website http://www.re-fire.org is certainly worth exploring.

The verses of the Gurbani are literally taken from "Sri Guru Granth Sahib Discovered: A Reference Book of Quotations," a flawed text authored by Rev. Hakim Singh Rahi. These selected verses are then compared and contrasted with the willfully selected verses from the Bible using the evangelical interpretations for the purposes of making an argument to convince the Sikhs to convert.


Rev. Singh

Spread in ten chapters, in the bibliography section, Rev. Singh has listed eleven references that he consulted; out of which four are on Sikhs, one on Sadhu Sundar Singh , one on Indian history, and the rest are Bible related. Amazingly Sadhu Sundar Selvaraj (latest "reincarnation" of the earlier Sadhu Sundar Singh) wrote a foreword.

Rev. James Singh harbors a shallow knowledge on both the Sikh religion and the Bible. This is self-evident in the book. Then, how did he convert to Christianity?

As a young man serving the prescribed mandatory military service of Singapore, unexplained circumstances landed him in the prison. Rev. Singh tells us

I requested for a Bible from a Christian friend, intending to use it as a pillow. In fact, it was a far greater blessing than I had thought. It not only served me as a good headrest, but also dynamically transformed my life. Even as I flipped the pages of this wonderful book, the words seemed to have such a profound impact in my life ministering right into my innermost being. I began to reflect on my sinfulness; pondered about my entire life; wondered what would become of me when I die, being certain there was no way I could save myself. At that point of intense reflection, I remembered the words of a friend who once told me that I could sincerely talk to God/Jesus just as I could to any other person.... I decided to kneel down on that wooden board, lifted my hands towards God and prayed for the forgiveness of sins.

I have serious problems with such kinds of descriptions. I suspect at the lack of details in comments such as these, mindful of the miraculous nature of the experience attributing credibility to those who fall for the magic. Recognizing much of the Bible being essentially un-readable, I highly doubt whether Rev. Singh read the Old Testament portion of the Bible in the cell on that night. Most likely he had the New Testament in his hands. How carefully he "read" the New Testament is also questionable! In fact I even doubt he read the New Testament that night. Being psychologically compromised, Rev. Singh's "spiritual experience" is not too far off from that experienced by Sadhu Sundar Singh when he first "read" the New Testament about a hundred years earlier.

Astounded by the inaccuracies littered all over, I opted not to touch the Sikhism side of the comparison, but concentrate on the Biblical elements brought forth by Rev. Singh in chapters six through eight--those dealing specifically with sin and salvation interposed with topics of karma, reincarnation, heaven, and hell.

ON SALVATION: On page 84, Rev. Singh begins his expose of salvation via grace emphasizing that the gift of salvation is not via works. He lays out his somewhat childlike description of six points against works under the following headings: (1) What kind of works can give life?, (2) How much work is enough to be sure you're not going to hell?, (3) Who will say we've done enough?, (4) Why did God send Jesus to die as Savior?, (5) What chance do we have that we will not fail?, and (6) Why faith and not works. The evidence provided in support of salvation via grace only is painfully weak and he fails to acknowledge and accept the concepts of salvation by methods other than the grace being promoted in the New Testament.

ON HEAVEN: Beginning on page 89, Rev. Singh describes heaven under the following four headings: (1) Heaven is a place, (2) Heaven is the Throne-Room of God, (3) Heaven is the Place of God's Full Glory, and (4) Heaven is the future Home of all Believers. As if that's not enough, he pursues the matter further by elaborating on the "nature of heaven" under the following three headings: (l) A Place of Great Glory, (2) A Place of Continual Worship, and (3) A Place That Will Never End." Such naive descriptions of serious theological issues only point to project Rev. Singh as weak and immature. The same is true regarding his commentaries on hell, reincarnation, and karma, and I will forgo any comment on it in this review. I request Rev. Singh to pay attention to details and not fall for the misinformation. His knowledge on Sikhism and the Biblical theology is highly flawed.

I recommend this book to people interested in learning the methodology often adopted by the Christian propagandist and missionaries' actively seeking converts. In addition, I also recommend Rev. Singh to read the ongoing discussion on SikhSpectrum on topics that include the Bible, heaven, hell etc. He might learn something of value!

#194
Snake Oil Baron
URL
March 5, 2009
12:08 AM

"The above measures will help India become a more secular country."

I am sure that the above measures would see India become a Christian nation in about a generation. All acts to suppress evangelical Christianity using government laws or violence and intimidation cause it to spread faster which is why it took over the Roman empire in the first place and why it is spreading fast in China, Iran and other Islamic nations and India as well. Don't fight a brush fire with a straw broom.

Poverty, uncertainty and lack of access to views which are critical of the epistemology and ontology of Christianity and Islam are what maintains these religions which is why Christianity is dieing in the West and why the Islamic apostasy issue is becoming more and more prominent there and in Islamic lands as wealth spread. The Islamic fundamentalism seen these days is a reaction to this decay.

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