REVIEW

Islamophobia - Organisation of Islamic Countries Report

March 30, 2008
Dr Bhaskar Dasgupta

Islamophobia exists and is steadily getting worse. A phobia is a strong irrational or powerful fear and dislikes of something, in this case, the religion of Islam. This phobia has attained such strong levels, that the Organisation of Islamic Countries has commissioned and recently released an Annual Report on Islamophobia. On reading the report, I was torn between two feelings; the first was serious concern about Islamophobia in the world and second was sheer bewilderment at the OIC as to how they help propagate the very Islamophobia that they want to eliminate.

I have spoken about Islamophobia before and have been warning about its prevalence for some time now. And regretfully, the situation is far from improving; instead it is getting worse. One can see that just looking at the rise in terrorist attacks and hate crimes, lurid headlines, anti-Semitic attacks in Europe in retaliation, etc. And the more this happens; the less the space becomes for moderates on both sides.

As I warned before, the world knows about the demonisation of a minority and knows what happens if that monster is let loose. We have seen that behaviour against Jews, Muslims, Christians, Blacks, Browns, Yellows, Hindus, Irish, English, Tutsi, you name it, it has happened. If there is a minority, the chances are that phobias, discrimination, genocide etc. against them have been in play.

So if you look at the report, the worry is clear. Muslims around the world are definitely in the cross-hairs of a variety of people. And you can very well see that in the pronouncements of some of the wilder variety of some politicians across the world; the subtle demonisation of Muslims in the mainstream, tabloid, and online media; and the increase in attacks on Muslims (or even Sikhs who these attackers thought that they looked like Muslims).

So yes, that definitely needs to be sorted out. From what I understand, the OIC asked for an annual report on Islamophobia to be tabled at the annual sessions of the OIC. The authors of this report are not clear nor are the terms of reference of this report.

But first the good points in the document. Yes, there are some good points in there. For example, the authors have collected a good selection of Islamophobia research sources. A reasonably good selection of political Islamophobic statements has also been collected in Section 2.1 and they have also done a good survey on what people have done to combat Islamophobia from a governmental, NGO and individual perspectives in section 1.6.

They also talk about how inter-faith initiatives have been established, which can at best improve inter-faith relations and at worst, not do any harm. The majority of the recommendations in the conclusion of Part I that they made to combat Islamophobia are quite bang on target and make pretty good sense. They should be read by anybody who is interested in this rather dreadful phenomenon. Section 1.5 specially is a very good overview of the situation of Muslims in Europe and USA, although some inconsistencies should have been addressed in a better way, such as praising Pope Benedict XVI in Section 3.5, but fulminating against him on page 3.

Looking at the document, I would conclude that this was done by some under-graduates from a 3rd grade university hidden in a country-side somewhere, who have no idea about modern life and have suddenly stumbled upon the internet with their first lesson being Google search. As a result, this document starts off with the best of intentions and ends up rather fanning Islamophobia instead of helping to reduce it. It suffers from the following major defects:

  • Total misunderstanding of the basic principle of Freedom of Speech. Freedom of speech includes the freedom to irritate and upset others. Freedom of speech does not include the right to discriminate against others though. For example, I can take the mickey out of suicide bombers wanting virgins and ending up with raisins. Or you can call me an infidel and say your religion is better than mine. These are completely acceptable, I have no issues. But you cannot tell others to kill me nor can I tell others to kill you. That is incitement to violence. The author seems to have deep intellectual issues in understanding this basic matter.
  • Confusing racism with Islamophobia. Race belongs to a genetic category generally exhibited on the basis of a physical appearance. Islamophobia is a fear of Islam. Two totally different things. While in certain cases (such as black Muslims), they might blow over into being the same, but to confuse both of them as one shows muddled thinking. Muslims are not a race, and they do include a variety of different races and ethnic groups.
  • Methodological and terminological confusion, which emerges from seriously flawed selection of incidents and coverage of incidents. Almost 50% of the incidents noted in the Appendix are not Islamophobic in nature, but belong to the category of freedom of speech or simple crime category. Islamophobia exists already without trying to add to it.
  • A totally wrong emphasis on legal protections. They try to go deep into legal aspects of various conventions and institutions. But you see, those are already established, anti-discrimination laws exist, anti-violence laws exist anti-incitement laws exist and they are sufficient. For example, they are talking about the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and completely forget that they themselves have repudiated it and have come up with a Universal Islamic Declaration of Human Rights. Here’s an idea! How about the OIC signing up to and transcribing to domestic law, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as most of the rest of the world has done?
  • Be very careful about complaining about being a victim, because it only stands up when you yourself have not victimised someone else. Now if you look at the OIC minorities, one can come up with many examples of victimisation that they themselves have done. And we are talking about Muslims victimising Muslims here, forget about non-Muslims. Ranging from Shia, Sunni, Ahmadi, Baha’i, Ismaili, Darfurians and then all the way to the other side like Jews, Christians, Hindus Buddhists, etc. have been victimised in OIC countries. Now, consider the reaction if such a report on anti-Baha'i or anti-Shia or anti-Semitic discrimination is presented at the OIC? How about considering the fact that many if not most current anti-Semitic attacks in Europe are carried out by European Muslims?
  • A totally imbalanced view of history. This entire report was so imbalanced in terms of its historical coverage that one does not even know where to start. What about the entry of Islam into the Caucasian world? Or the Chinese area? How about how it managed the entry and existence in South Asia and Africa? Islam has perhaps victimised more in many countries and regions than had been victimised against. Perhaps this is why their geographical scope of the report is so muddled (to avoid any facts which destroy their argument?)
  • Significant challenges in the identification of the causes of Islamophobia. First of all, there is not one form of Islam; it is not a single view, sect or a monolith. More importantly it is not the role of the state to define it. So if you are an Ahmadi or a Shia or a Sunni or what have you, we simply do not care! If you have religious differences, then by all means, discuss them, but do not kill for those differences. For example, the list of seven points raised by the Runnymede Trust defining Islamophobia can, unfortunately be equally applied to anti-Semitism, Anti-Hinduism, Anti-Shia… in OIC countries, where they will be totally applicable. Consequently, ALL root causes of Islamophobia as identified in section 1.4.1 are completely wrong and misallocated.
  • A clear misunderstanding of the role of the media and the level of control people can actually exert over them. Most - if not all - of the OIC have no or very little press freedom. On top of that, the Arab League, a subset of the OIC, has decided to take fuller control over their TV Media since February 2008. That is not how the media works in other countries. Do check out independent organisations such as Reporters without Borders.
  • Israel – Palestine conflict. This is something that I can never understand. Curiously, more than 3/4th of all dead Palestinians have been killed by their fellow Arabs compared to the numbers killed by Israelis, but besides that breathtaking hypocrisy, I still cannot understand why they would include it in here. Or exclude say something like Bangladesh and Sudan? Pretty bizarre and intellectually vacuous.

Islamophobia exists, hate crimes have seriously stated happening in many countries and that is something to be worried about. All parts of civil society have to take part in ensuring that this canker of Islamophobia does not emerge from the dark evil corners of our souls. This includes you and me, the media, NGOs, churches and mosques, the government and international organisations, etc. But this has to happen for the right reasons, not for the spectacularly wrong and intellectually vapid reasons as stated in this report. All this will end up doing (and has already done) is to provide ammunition to the right wing that the OIC, as the premier Islamic organisation, takes decisions based upon policy papers which a zoned out undergraduate would hesitate to submit. And by the way, try to understand the concept of free speech. People who are out there trying to control free speech are basically engaging in Neanderthal behaviour and should not be upset if their speech is ignored, unheard or even mis-understood.

All this to be taken with a grain of piquant salt!

Dr. Bhaskar Dasgupta works in the city of London in various capacities in the financial sector. He has worked and travelled widely around the world. The articles in here relate to his current studies and are strictly his opinion and do not reflect the position of his past or current employer(s). If you do want to blame somebody, then blame my sister and editor, she is responsible for everything, the ideas, the writing, the quotes, the drive, the israeli-palestinian crisis, global warming, the ozone layer depletion and the argentinian debt crisis.
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#1
tarikur
March 30, 2008
04:05 PM

Thank you for the nice article.

Islamophobia need to be STOP and so radical Islamic terrorist.

I just feel like there are people who wants World War 3 for entertainment ans so end of days can come. This kind of thinking need to stop.

#2
Nasser rohani
URL
March 30, 2008
05:06 PM

Very nice article. One major mistake is when he classifies the Baha'i Faith as an Islamic sect. Baha'i Faith is an independent world religion. Its' relation to Islam is same as Islam's relationship to Judaism or hinuism.

#3
bd
URL
March 30, 2008
05:36 PM

Point taken, Nasser, I should have explained it better and I should know!!!

http://bahaisonline.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=308&Itemid=2

apologies again.

#4
Morris
March 30, 2008
10:11 PM

Good article bd
I think Islam leaders need to reflect upon themselves to begin with. Who are the role models for muslim public? Bin ladin? Ayatola Khomani? Perhaps Arafat? I don't know. None inspiring muslim mass for peace with and respect for community at large. All we can do is to hope and pray that a leader from within will emerge and be able to make radical changes in Islam so that they feel truly etitled to respect they demand from the rest of the world. I am not very optimist.

#5
bd
URL
March 31, 2008
01:03 AM

Thank you, Morris.

Here's a partial answer to your question:

http://piquancy.blogspot.com/2006/04/public-opinion-is-best-judge-of-whos.html

#6
Ruvy in Jerusalem
March 31, 2008
07:24 AM

Fine article, bd,

There was a time and place for Jews to play the fiddle of victimization - particularly apt performance times were the late 1800's to 1925 in Russia, and from 1925 to 1956 in Europe and the Middle East generally.

Unfortunately, my co-religionists have turned victimization into a religion of its own, building expensive temples to worship at while they let our tribal identity slip away into western assimilation with its sick and decadent culture. For us, victimization is now a series of empty gestures akin to ancestor worship, itself a form of idolatry.

And now those who worship at these idolatrous temples lust after that which their eyes lead them to, and chase after what their heart seeks. They shall suffer the appropriate punishment at the Hand of G-d.

And now it appears that the Wahhabi and their ideological spoor, the "Moslem" Brotherhood, in all of its cancerous branches, have learned much from us and know well how to play the fiddle of victimization themselves.

If so many Wahhabi misguided Moslems weren't so busy making victims out of so many others, their complaints might have some grounding. As it stands, they are the hypocritical mewlings of malicious murderers whose song is "what is mine is mine, and what is yours is mine, also."

For those who dislike MY words, I quote the author, Dr. Dasgupta, for truth:

Israel - Palestine conflict. This is something that I can never understand. Curiously, more than 3/4th of all dead Palestinians have been killed by their fellow Arabs compared to the numbers killed by Israelis, but besides that breathtaking hypocrisy, I still cannot understand why they would include it in here. Or exclude say something like Bangladesh and Sudan? Pretty bizarre and intellectually vacuous.

#7
Ruvy in Jerusalem
March 31, 2008
07:47 AM

I ask all who read what I write to note - I do not condemn Islam or Moslems as an enemies of my people. I believe firmly that we will see, in the End of Days, a reconciliation between the Children of Kedar and Nevayot (the two oldest sons of Ishmael) and the Children of Israel, as predicted by the Prophet Isaiah at Isaiah 60:7-8.

But I do condemn the Wahhabi and their ideological spoor who have stolen Islam from its rightful owners and who turn it into a nightmare of war and death. Their sins are not just against non-Moslems but against Moslems as well.

#8
Ruvy in Jerusalem
March 31, 2008
10:16 AM

I ask all who read what I write to note - I do not condemn Islam or Moslems as an enemies of my people. I believe firmly that we will see, in the End of Days, a reconciliation between the Children of Kedar and Nevayot (the two oldest sons of Ishmael) and the Children of Israel, as predicted by the Prophet Isaiah at Isaiah 60:7-8.

But I do condemn the Wahhabi and their ideological spoor who have stolen Islam from its rightful owners and who turn it into a nightmare of war and death. Their sins are not just against non-Moslems but against Moslems as well.

#9
Man Singh
URL
March 31, 2008
10:53 AM

Morris # 5

Rol models for muslims should not be limited to poloiticians or terrorists only.

I propose Dr APJ Abdul Kalam as Role model of Global Muslim community ir Muslims Umma.

#10
Morris
March 31, 2008
11:56 AM

Man Singh
You are right about APJ Kalam. But he has not inspired any muslims. He seems to have inspired more non-muslims than muslims. Having said that I admit I do not know very much about how well he is recognized by muslims as their role model or indeed a leader.

#11
monte
March 31, 2008
01:39 PM

You write:

Israel - Palestine conflict. This is something that I can never understand. ...

You understand a lot. Why don't you understand the raging antisemitism in the OIC and the religious requirement to eliminate Israel? The Hamas charter is perfectly clear; so is the Fatah charter. Please comment.

#12
Jim in Oregon
March 31, 2008
03:32 PM

Very interesting article BD......thank you for sharing.
There is no question that Islamophobia is increasing and my question is this: Where are the millions upon millions of peaceful Muslims who can stand up to defend the beauty and peaceful teachings of Prophet Muhammad and to present the religion of Islam to the world as one of peace, brotherhood, love......which I truly believe it to be??
There is so much Islamophobia because what is seen in the news is so destructive and negative. The media tends to focus on all the negativity, etc.
The peaceful and loving majority of the faith of Islam need to stand up and defend the beauty of the religion and to involve themselves in their community in service and interfaith efforts, etc to show that the religion of Islam is NOT what is presented in the news but rather a religion of beauty and inspired divine teachings.
If everyone only saw Christianity as the example of Jim Jones or Jimmy Baker or Jimmy Swaggart, etc.....then one would think that Christianity is nothing but a bunch of thieves and psychos but we know this is not the true spirit of Jesus' faith.
When Muslims can openly show the true love and peace for all that Prophet Muhammad called upon for His followers to demonstrate in their individual lives and demonstrate this in their communities then people will see what Islam is truly about.
When Muslims can stand up and show love for their Baha'i neighbor and defend that Baha'i neighbor's right to practice their faith even though they themselves don't follow the Baha'i religion then that will go a long way towards demonstrating the peaceful intentions of Muslims.
Peace,
Jim

#13
temporal
URL
March 31, 2008
03:58 PM

beady:

nice one:)

being the judge and the jury...at this rate you will run out of salt;)

Islamophobia exists, hate crimes have seriously stated happening in many countries and that is something to be worried about. All parts of civil society have to take part in ensuring that this canker of Islamophobia does not emerge from the dark evil corners of our souls.


disagree.

the real issue to be tackled head on is discriminative and selective practices of hate crimes and hate literature and hate verdict on anyone

that will the fair, proper, balanced, indiscriminate (un-selective) approach that would work in the long run...otherwise these "selective" phobias will regroup and keep resurfacing

(and of course the added advantage - to keep the scribes in business;)


...But this has to happen for the right reasons...


this is what i alluded to earlier in you taking all the mantles on your shoulder;)

good luck!


****

Israel - Palestine conflict. This is something that I can never understand. Curiously, more than 3/4th of all dead Palestinians have been killed by their fellow Arabs compared to the numbers killed by Israelis, but besides that breathtaking hypocrisy, I still cannot understand why they would include it in here. Or exclude say something like Bangladesh and Sudan? Pretty bizarre and intellectually vacuous.


Wah wah - after that humble admission was there a need of proof?

;)

Hint: look at the ground reality TODAY. If you need help i can be of help.

TODAY is the operative world

Israel has turned Gaza and West bank into a ghetto. They are systematically and calculatedly stifling the Palestinians.

The survivors of Auschwitz are the Nazis for the Palestinians of today

THIS is the reality of TODAY...Palestinian children, women and men are being killed by today's Supremacists...need any salt?

;)

#14
bd
URL
March 31, 2008
05:03 PM

Ruvy

further to your point about Jewish feelings about victimisation, the ironic thing is, the image of Israeli's in India is of people who shut up and simply go ahead and do things. If people bite them, they bite back. Simple folks who rose above their victimisation by the germans and arabs and are now worthy of emulation.

While I do realise that many think that the jews do complain and moan too much, it is not that bad.

What people do not realise is that certain memories become civilisational memories. For example, the original exile thousands of years ago, while originally political in nature, is now firmly part of Judaism, its rituals and theology. Similarly, the Shoah is well on its way to do so. ....

#15
bd
URL
March 31, 2008
05:05 PM

#11, i did allude to that fact, see bullet #5

#16
bd
URL
March 31, 2008
05:09 PM

#13, t, you raised many points. Let me deal with them one by one :)

Legal Discrimination is wrong. crimes are wrong, period. But not literature, sorry, that doesnt compute. Literature is literature, discrimination does not work that way. More importantly, who will be the judge of what's discrimiatory literature? I wouldnt trust the OIC or any Islamic body to be an independent judge at all. Which leaves a secular body. If literature is produced with a clear function to propagate hate and produces killings, then yes, there are sufficient laws, a legal system, a jury system and while that has challenges, its pretty good :)

#17
bd
URL
March 31, 2008
05:15 PM

t, ok, my point was that they seem to think that one can include israel and palestine in that report but exclude, say Bangladesh. It does not work that way, my friend. Arabs HAVE killed more Palestinians than Israeli's. And those Palestinians, for example, killed by Brigadier Zia Ul Haq in Jordan are as equally (if nore more in number) dead as the ones killed by the Israeli's.

But that's neither here nor there, to selectively point to israel while ignoring the bangladesh, sudan, syria, yemen and and and is, well, rather interesting as a reason to point to it for islamaphobia :)

And see the jews, my friend, that's why their protestations of being victims does not wash that much. That's what the OIC report authors are doing as well. They are whining about being victims while victimising others. You know what that's called.... :)

#18
bd
URL
March 31, 2008
05:35 PM

Ah! Abdul Kalam, one of my hero's. But I am not sure whether he will be considered as a global hero for obvious reasons...

#19
temporal
URL
March 31, 2008
05:36 PM

beady:

if you read again, i did not comment on OIC at all...and if you like i will throw in bangladesh, kashmir, chechenya, darfur if it pleases you;)

(as well as pakistan where the sunnis are killing shias and shias sunnis and suicide bombers are killing sunnis and shias alike)

i began with the real issue

if you study hate crimes, literature is part of its domain (#16)

and zina ull haq or no zina, the israelis are today's Nazis and the Palestinian civilians are today's persecuted jews

and one more thing

silence on this palestinian suffering and deaths will make us an accomplice of those who were silent when the gas chambers were burning innocent jews

#20
bd
URL
March 31, 2008
05:52 PM

t, i know you didnt comment on OIC, but I did, my friend. What's the point of stating that in the Islamophobia report? nowt!

I know, zia was a nazi, israeli's are nazi's, jordanian's are nazi's, that place is crawling with them.

and well, people are also silent on the comoros invasion as well as the burmese crackdown not to mention..... I think it equals out. See what i mean? when people forget their own victimisation of others, their own victimisation is doubted...

#21
Morris
March 31, 2008
06:26 PM

temporal
I think you are getting carried away by comparing Israelis with nazis. I agree that Israel has been unfair and unjust to palestanians if for nothing else but for contnuing to build illegal settlements. This is out and outright stealing of palestanian land. Unfortunately, with the US backing they are getting away with it. It is a case of might is right. But does not compare with Nazis and Jews.

Egyptian leader Sadat was very smart. Had it not for him Israel would have grabbed part of Sinai as well. Palestanians are not acting smartly. Longer they carry on this conflict, lesser they are likely to get. I think they had a reasonable deal, the last one which Arafat subsequantly rejected.

#22
temporal
URL
March 31, 2008
07:56 PM

beady:

I think it equals out - perhaps you should revisit this? (because obviously i disagree and on reflection perhaps you would too)

the framework i established in my response is TODAY...and you make a fine poodle of mixing today with all the yesterdays...to an extent that is academic (and necessary)...but one must also draw a lesson and MOVE on...not mix up arguments

am focussing on vitimisation of civilians TODAY by yesterday's victims...the epitome of irony (and injustice)

ps: how wonderful of you to appreciate the game OIC picked up from AIPAC;)

how many articles have you done on the charitable work done by AIPAC?

#23
bd
URL
April 1, 2008
01:35 AM

t

there is no statute of limitations on genocide, my friend, you do not walk away from genocide that easily. So by saying that forget about the masses of palestinians killed by fellow arabs (so much so that the palestinians themselves do not want any help from their "friends") and just look at jews, is a bit strange.

And talking about drawing lessons, I dont think the other Arabs have learnt their lessons from killing palestinians, they are busy doing the same to others, dont you think?

So going back to your framework, good for you, buddy, have fun with it but its not very useful for discussing Islamophobia is it?

cheers

bd

#24
temporal
URL
April 1, 2008
02:28 AM

beady:

the difference is being academic and .......:)

statute of limitations can be applied only under agreed upon laws....so the first step is to agree to a set of laws when applying to past injustices and genocides....good luck with agreements and consensus there...keep us informed;)

why be so selective? oh i forget it is islamophobia you are discussing?

so we leave the treatment meted out to american indians (red indians), inuits, aborigines out of the picture and keep returning to arabs and palestinians ...and shed crocodile tears ...(but not about israelis and palestinians that is CURRENT and REAL because that does not fit your phobia?

so you do not approve of OIC (I for Islamic) discussing Islamic issues? i will write to them perhaps at the next summit they should discuss how the west loves them;)

#25
bd
April 1, 2008
03:06 AM

t,

I am afraid statute of limitations is legal not academic.

As for rest of your comments, thank you for those.

#26
bd
April 1, 2008
03:06 AM

t,

Thank you for your comments, much appreciated.

#27
Anamika
April 1, 2008
03:28 AM

BD - I found the article very interesting and thought provoking until I got to the end (and your apparently favourite bugbear).

You seem to ignore one basic fact: Palestine is an "emotional" issue for many Muslims and Arabs because it stands as a continuing symbol of disenfranchisement, colonialisation and apparent disempowerment of Islam/Muslims/Arabs . And really, to ignore the power of symbols is to take an absurdly literalist stand which is self-defeating.

Two: A quick look at policies reveals that OIC states plays politics by cutting deals with Israel on one end and trying to appease their populations with platitudes re: palestine on the other - so the inclusion of Palestine in the report is simply a nod to the symbolism (and a convenient way of distracting their populations). Its not too different from the various anti-Semitism reports (by AIPAC, various other Jewish lobbby groups in Europe and Israel) that ensure that a mention is made of the Holocaust on EVERY discussion regarding Israel or the Jews.

Three: I am not sure where you pull out the figure that more Palestinians have been killed by Arabs especially as it falls into the very generalization that you critique (when? how? WHICH Arabs - other states, Lebanese Christian militias, internecine fighting?) But I am willing to go along with your statistic for the moment (but could I get a non-Israeli source for this please - just for reference?)

However, I am a bit concerned by the glib assumptions you express based on that statistic. And since you are looking at the PAST, let me try finding another example: MORE Indians were killed during the British colonial era at the hands of INDIANS than at "white" hands. It was Indian soldiers who fired at Jallianwala, Indians who defeated the various kingdoms pre and during 1857. And technically it was Indian soldiers who suppressed freedom struggles and helped colonize wide swathes of the world for the British (Burma, China's opium wars, various ME rebellions, Afghan wars etc)

Does that mean we should have never fought against colonialism? More importantly, just because it was Indian hands that wielded the guns (which were powered by the political/economic might of the colonizer) absolve the British of their DOMINANT responsibility? Does this mean Indians are to blame for the colonial excesses committed at British behest?

Methinks your personal ideology on Israel (and a lot of conservative Indians seem to have elided their own unease about Muslims to a loyalty to Israel) is fettering your argument to a simplistic, literalist and unsustainable one.






#28
bd
April 1, 2008
03:43 AM

Anamika

Thank you for the comments. Here's the issue. The authors of the report are pushing that report on to say the western and non-Muslim world saying that one of the reasons for Islamophobia is the Israeli Palestinian issue. Ok, so far so good.

I understand why it is emotive for them and I realise the implications of colonialism, but to point to that factor while ignoring others is why this factor is impossible to corroborate to the audience.

So for example, why no mention about the delay in giving the Kurdish people their inalienable right to their own homeland....

While getting good non Israeli references on the number of people killed is tough (how many arab historians do you know who have investigated using official archives on Arab killings of Arabs, as a pointer, look at the armenian genocide scholarship levels...?), I wil put together a note and post it!

Presumably this paper was the basis for some positions for negotiations and debate by the OIC. If that was the case, then the objections that I have raised are going to be raised as well.

And thanks for yur comments on my personal ideology.

#29
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 1, 2008
03:52 AM

And see the Jews, my friend, that's why their protestations of being victims does not wash that much.

Please don't include me in that bunch, bd; remember what I wrote in comment #6:

Unfortunately, my co-religionists have turned victimization into a religion of its own, building expensive temples to worship at while they let our tribal identity slip away into western assimilation with its sick and decadent culture. For us, victimization is now a series of empty gestures akin to ancestor worship, itself a form of idolatry.

In reality, you are referring to the secular Jewish establishment in Israel, and the whining liberal Jewish establishment in exile. THEY are the voice of the past. You are not referring to the future of the Jewish people - the Jews who live in this country.

TODAY.

The theological meaning of the Nazi and European murder of my people is still being worked out TODAY. And more and more Jews HERE, TODAY, are coming to the painful conclusion that Rav Meir Kahane, z"l hy"d, was right in his warnings, as well as his assessment of the real meaning of the Holocaust for us Jews.

As for our friend from western Ontario and his allegations of Jews being today's Nazis, I leave you with this image to consider.

#30
Anamika
April 1, 2008
04:24 AM

BD: "So for example, why no mention about the delay in giving the Kurdish people their inalienable right to their own homeland...."

I guess you are doing that "argumentative Indian" thing because the above statement is so glaringly obvious. Why are the "inalienable" rights of the Tamil Eelam, Bodoland, Nagas, Ladakhis, Kashmiris, Sikh Punjabi, Garhwalis, etc NOT in the same category as western/foreign colonialism?

As far as the ME is concerned, Kurds are an internal issue - albeit one that dates back to colonial division of territories. Its not that different from the various divisions within Afghanistan. Lets turn it around - its the same reason as the "inalienable" rights of the Basques being a concern for France and Spain (and thus EU) and not India or Brazil.

Re: Armenian genocide - why would Arabs keep records of Turkish actions? Re: Arab statistics on Palestine - see PASSIA.

There are other sources on the region - including those by independent observers (both Israeli and foreign). Its just hard to believe Israeli data on Palestine because so much of it is skewed to fit their political agenda.


#31
bd
April 1, 2008
06:30 AM

Anamika

not me, I am looking at the OIC report. If they are claiming Islamophobia arises because of self determination being squished, then well, the OIC countries themselves are doing a very good job of squishing it as well.

So yes, this argumentative indian is saying that that factor is not applicable if we are coming up with causes of Islamophobia. You cannot claim that fight for self determination is fine when its done by Muslims against Jews but not ok when its muslims against muslims and THEN claim that that factor is a cause for Islamophobia.

Anamika, if you remove that review framework, then it is a different argument.

As for unbiased sources in the israeli palestinian conflict......, that's another argument altogether, but give me some time, I will get to a proper post with references, I was counting from the revolt in the mid 1800's against the egyptians (which arguably could be said to be the rise in a palestine nation so to say..) and down to today, and yes, anybody speaking arabic would be culturally arabic. But to further complicate matters in coming up with casualty counts, for example, the brigade lead by brigadier zia ul haq's killings during black september have a huge whack on the casualty counts but that's not arab on palestinian killing. Then you have the internal tribal riot over 70-100 years, killings of palestinians who were in the various other country regiments (such as syrian regiments) who fought with the jordanians, lebanon you know.....

Compared that to the casualty figures in the wars and the post war periods and then the 2 intifada's. But lets see when i add them all up and put in ranges with probability figures....

#32
Anamika
April 1, 2008
07:29 AM

BD - I dont have any problems with the review of the OIC report and the first part of the piece. I agree with all of that. What I DONT agree with is this lumping together of "Arabs" or "Muslims" - whether it is politically expedient for various sides or not, there is no such singular identity as an "Arab" - not since the demise of a very brief historical moment of leftist/secular/pan-arabism that was more a product of a Fanonian postcolonial elite than a real grass-roots products.

I find that idea of "Arabs killed more Palestinians" than "Jews have killed" really problematic because of the implicit defense of Israel that is holds. Its a bit like using the number of partition deaths to defend British colonial record.

The fact remains that Palestinians have been steadily displaced from their traditional lands (which YES were under Ottoman rule) by the naqba. So your example of the anti-Egyptian uprising is quite irrelevant. As an illustration: Yes, Xhosas were killed by the Zulus in South Africa in internecine warfare - yet that hardly justifies the apartheid, displacement, "homelands" imposed on the black South Africans by colonial and then apartheid regimes.

In making that spurious link, you are purposefully ignoring the power imbalance that the Zionist machinery brought to bear in establishing the final European settler colony, and that it continues to employ even today against the Palestinians - and no, this neither excuses the Arabs of their behaviour, or tries to justify the way the Arabs use Palestinians as the kameez-ul-Usman. But lets not pretend that Israel is not the prime culprit in what has happened to the Palestinians since the 1940s.



#33
bd
April 1, 2008
07:59 AM

Anamika

I am not the person making the connection, it was made for me. I am merely pointing out the inconsistencies in that formulation.

The israeli-palestinian issue is much more complicated than suddenly becoming a primary cause of islamophobia. So while Israel is the prime culprit since the 1940's, that is not the reason for Islamophobia and for OIC to bring in this factor is frankly silly.

#34
bd
April 1, 2008
08:02 AM

and before I forget, Anamika, the time period in question actually goes back to the emergence of Islam. So effectively, if I had to align my causalty figures with the time period mentioned in the OIC report, Israel would be a tiny blip on the graph!

which is another indication of the vacuity of this report.

#35
bd
April 1, 2008
10:26 AM

Ruvy

Apologies, i missed your comment.

My comment about Israel and victimisation was the generalised comment, not aimed at you personally, but your comments add to it.

Personally speaking, i have said before that countries based upon religion have seeds of their own change (perhaps even destruction) sown inside themselves. That is mainly because they are unable to handle (1) minorities; (2) different interpretations; (3) global rules and regulations ranging from the ICC to the WTO to arbitration bodies, etc.

States have to work on written legal systems, constitutions and that sits very uneasily with faith.

#36
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 1, 2008
11:37 AM

bd,

I just finished watching Fitna on the internet, or at least what remained after it was censored by "LiveLeak".

The producer of the film accurately portrays the Wahhabi point of view, the point of view poisoning many Moslems in Europe and North America. The emphases on the Qur'anic verses quoted all are on the violence to be expended on non-believers, including Hindus. The propaganda of Arab rebels against Israel is also shown - a three year old is shown describing Jews as being apes and pigs because the Qur'an says so. Signs of demonstrators are shown that warn Jews of the "real holocaust". There is also a live beheading in this movie, a video released by terrorists.

No wonder so many Moslems are upset! The Wahhabi are upset because it shows them for the barbaric filth they are; true Moslems are offended that the filth of the Wahhabi ideology of death is being sprayed on them.

One problem is that the threats of death from the Wahhabi tend to silence most true Moslems, as well as scare most other folks - like the ones at YouTube.

If anything, a movie like this will provoke Islamophobia. But Moslem terrorists are going to provoke a holocaust of terrible proportions in Europe, and Moslems will be the victims. The Europeans may pretend that they are civilized, but they are still the savages who burned witches, killed Jews and Roma, and they will probably kill many millions of Moslems in Europe when finally provoked.

The Tana"kh predicts reconciliation between the Children of Israel and the Children of Ishmael - but I'm afraid much blood will be shed before this happens.

This is truly saddening.

#37
Aaman
URL
April 1, 2008
11:40 AM

Ruvy/BD, would appreciate reviews of Fitna. I've got it on torrent d/l myself.

#38
Chandra
April 1, 2008
12:01 PM


As far as i can see, muslims according to the whole world would include the 250 M off muslims living in NAfrica and Middle East. The Paks have come into the picture during the last few years on account of Afghanistan.Otherwise muslims are divided into two parts- Upper class and lower class. Indian muslims are largely regarded as lower class. No wonder their Arab masters treat them (and the Paks and Bangladeshis) like shit when they work in the middle East. No wonder the OIC is so fanatical that they exclude 150 M muslims from being a part of the OIC because they committed the crime of living with 900 M hindoos.

As far as I know, there are many kinds of islamic phobias

- The Europeans and Americans are fearful of Middle Easterners
- The Britts are fearful of the Paks
- Indians have a hatred for muslims in their own country

Each of these has different root causes. Middle Easterners have a whole host of grouses - Israel and America being key ones
Paks (or some of them) feel left out (or whatever mental issues they have) in Britain
In India, both muslim and hindu leadership have used this diviseness to consolidate their votes.

Considering the current scenario, the only I hope i have is for Indian muslims. Many of them are hard working, willing to be educated. Many of them are beinnning to understand manipulation. Thankfully for them many hindus are also begiinning to realise this kind of politics and therefore not always rewarding such people.

#39
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 1, 2008
12:29 PM

Aaman,

I'll give this a shot. But, it would be more interesting if a Moslem reviewed this movie. The rest of us - all of us - are intended victims of Wahhabi terrorism.

#40
Anamika
April 1, 2008
01:16 PM

BD: see your point re how the OIC is making that link...i also see how a less than articulate reasoning would link palestine to islamophobia..but now that you have clarified the points, cool. :-)

Aaman: Fitna isn't really causing half as much of a "ruckus" as Wilders thought it would - other than in radical Islamist and far-right European circles (funny how they mirror themselves).

FYI Der Spiegel carried a review by Fatma Aykut titled, "I'm not the least bit offended." (http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,544454,00.html)

I watched it and found it rather pathetic - and ironically a near replica of someo of the jihadi propaganda videos found on youtube (my favourite is a Brit-Pakistani one warning against the dangers of Bollywood!)

A far better idea is the Pakistani one - Khuda ke Liye (In the Name of God). Not the slickest film - by hollywood/bollywood standards, but far more unflinching in its honesty re: both western islamophobia and jihadis.

My favourite scene is at the end - with the young man who has reverted back to his usual urban gear after being disillusioned by jihad raising his voice in namaz in the very mosque (and in front of the same maulvi)that had seen his radicalisation. Really recommend it...

#41
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 1, 2008
02:34 PM

Considering Anamika's comments, the ruckus is the fear of death by Dutch politicians, the fear of death by You Tube types, and finally the anger of the Wahhabi terrorists who are shown for the trash they are.

But the impact will be on western audiences for whom this movie is really made. Hindus who have lived with Moslems will not be impressed, but westerners and some Jews will.

I wasn't that impressed. I know who my enemies are, and whom I'll have to kill, should it come to that. And I have a pretty good idea of where the danger will come from in terms of betrayal as well.

#42
bd
URL
April 1, 2008
02:41 PM

Fitna is not worth the electrons it is exciting, Aaman. One can delve into the sura's and verses, and debate on the translations vis a vis various tafsirs or even relating to other fiqh schools, but that's horrendously boring!

now, if somebody did want to poke holes from the european far right, then they would pick up old tammiya...., but this video is boring!, lol

#43
bd
URL
April 1, 2008
02:47 PM

Ruvy #36, yes. i agree with you, Never forget the propensity of Europeans (and to a lesser extent, Americans...) for extreme violence. It is hardly few decades that WW2 ended and looking at the steadily rising graph, I am very worried. And if the EU elites think that a poxy reform treaty and some other bits will paper over the nationalistic cracks, they have another think coming.

In the economist today, there was a fascinating comment, the reason why we didnt have that many wars in Europe is because most of the states are now almost completely ethnically aligned. But increased immigration is blurring those boundaries, population getting older, economic growth slow, elite out of touch..., fun times

#44
bd
URL
April 1, 2008
02:48 PM

Chandra, good identifiers of more reasons and more granularity of the possible reasons. Even more reason for the author's of that report to reconsider...

#45
temporal
URL
April 1, 2008
03:41 PM

beady:

your words!

Here's the issue. The authors of the report are pushing that report on to say the western and non-Muslim world saying that one of the reasons for Islamophobia is the Israeli Palestinian issue. Ok, so far so good.

I understand why it is emotive for them and I realise the implications of colonialism, but to point to that factor while ignoring others is why this factor is impossible to corroborate to the audience.

So for example, why no mention about the delay in giving the Kurdish people their inalienable right to their own homeland....


kurds are muslims and by your own admission you were dealing with "Islam phobias"


:)

#46
temporal
URL
April 1, 2008
04:12 PM

ana:

this is the crux when getting those numbers

However, I am a bit concerned by the glib assumptions you express based on that statistic. And since you are looking at the PAST, let me try finding another example: MORE Indians were killed during the British colonial era at the hands of INDIANS than at "white" hands. It was Indian soldiers who fired at Jallianwala, Indians who defeated the various kingdoms pre and during 1857. And technically it was Indian soldiers who suppressed freedom struggles and helped colonize wide swathes of the world for the British (Burma, China's opium wars, various ME rebellions, Afghan wars etc)

Does that mean we should have never fought against colonialism? More importantly, just because it was Indian hands that wielded the guns (which were powered by the political/economic might of the colonizer) absolve the British of their DOMINANT responsibility? Does this mean Indians are to blame for the colonial excesses committed at British behest?

Methinks your personal ideology on Israel (and a lot of conservative Indians seem to have elided their own unease about Muslims to a loyalty to Israel) is fettering your argument to a simplistic, literalist and unsustainable one.


and the other numbers you alluded to ... millions killed in partition

***

whatever those numbers beady comes up from non-jewish sources will reveal...there cannot be a justification for the holocaust thrust against the occupied palestinians

it cuts no dice, killing civilians (palestininans or israelis - by individuals or by states)

it cuts no dice when former victims victimise others




#47
rumana husain
URL
April 2, 2008
08:36 AM

PHEW!!!

#48
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 2, 2008
10:39 AM

New York Times Article: In Gaza, Hamas's Insults to Jews Complicate Peaceby STEVEN ERLANGER.

Egypt barely allows Gazan Arabs to visit Egypt today - and Egypt created the open air prison that Gaza is. Not long ago, Egyptians from el-Arish visiting Gaza couldn't believe how prosperous it was compared to el-Arish. And Gazans visiting el-Arish couldn't believe how bad things were for Egyptians.

Something to keep in mind when reading the mewlings of the people who call us Nazis and get apoplectic if anyone defends a Jew or Israel.

Beyond that, not comment is necessary.

#49
temporal
URL
April 2, 2008
11:17 AM

more from the usual suspects:

Wake up, fellow Israelis, it's over, we've won! What is more we've won a lot: more than 8,000 square miles out of the 10,400 square miles of the British Mandate for Palestine...

Problems remain, of course. We Israelis have made a shambles of our Zionist enterprise by establishing settlements in the Palestinian territories we have occupied since 1967. Either we must disentangle ourselves from the Palestinians, or else create a structure for sharing the land with them. Many of the flagship Jewish settlements are so deep in Palestinian territory that no matter how the borders were to be redrawn, the settlements would be left inside Palestine.

...For any "two-state solution" to work, we would need to conduct a complete withdrawal from the West Bank. Even so, the success of the Zionist enterprise would be astounding.

What we should not be doing is what we are doing now: besieging and blacking out Gaza, killing and arresting dozens of Palestinians in the occupied territories every month, and constructing walls and fences between us and our neighbors. D Gavron


Instead of gas chambers, slow death by stifling.

The jew the new Nazi: the palestinians the new jews. holocaust by any name

#50
Morris
April 2, 2008
12:54 PM

"The jew the new Nazi: the palestinians the new jews. holocaust by any name."

Repeatiing this mantra does not make it believable. Admitteddly Israel has been unjust. But then palestinians are not acting in admirable way either. For one thing nazis never talked about negotiating with jews and periodicaly shook hands with them. I think that is a big glaring difference among many more.

I agree that at times Israel appears not very sincere because they talk about negotiations on one hand and continues building illegal settlements on the other hand. This may have something to do with their internal politics. I do not know why they have to be so blatantly insincere. But comparing with holocaust is stretching a lot, is'nt it?

#51
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 2, 2008
01:32 PM

bd,

There you have it:

I find that idea of "Arabs killed more Palestinians" than "Jews have killed" really problematic because of the implicit defense of Israel that is holds.

The snake of truth at last slithers out from behind the multisyllabic blather of academic phrasing.

It would be far more honest for Anamika to come out and say what she means - "Jews don't deserve a homeland!"

Let's distill her argument to its simple essence. Arabs, every variety of them, deserve a homeland, Indians deserve a homeland, Englishmen deserve a homeland, but Jews do not deserve a homeland. Neither do Basques or Kurds. When homelands were being handed out, they weren't on the line. Too bad.

But more important, any defense of Israel is indefensible.

That's the bottom line. All the rest that she says is garbage. The implication, of course, is that we Jews should be assimilated away or annihilated - but not by good Indians, lest their karma be messed up!

And I've heard these views before. I comprehend fully.

At least Temporal does not temporize. Any defense of the Jew is indefensible and

The Jew [is] the new Nazi: the Palestinians the new Jews. holocaust by any name

I'll not waste time on the standard Zionist response. You've heard it all.

The Zionist simply wants to be one of the nations, a people like all the others - and it is clear that the world - represented here by people like Anamika and Temporal and their running dogs - will not let him.

So, fuck that bullshit. It's not Judaism anyway; it is just the whining of just another scared kike pleading for special treatment - equality. The only Jew who pleads is scared shitless and cursed with a ghetto mentality.

Any Jew who pleads in the face of obvious Jew-hatred deserves all the contempt the non-Jew heaps on him.

The Rav Kahane, may his memory be for a blessing and may G-d avenge his blood, taught me never to plead, or beg or even attempt to reason over what is the Holy Writ. That is the equivalent of cursing G-d. I have since come to understand differently from the way I used to.

But I will gladly explain:

So far as I'm concerned, G-d gave me and all the other Children of Israel all of the Land of Israel with borders defined in the Torah and in the end, those will be the borders of my country. Full stop. Further, that it is not for me to stand and plead for support or justice before the likes of any non-Jew. We stand a nation alone, separate from all of mankind. That is the root meaning of kadósh "set aside".

And we as a Nation or as a People, are not subject to your judgment or approval. Judgment is in the Hand of G-d, not man.

Those are my views, and you are entitled to think of them what you wish; I'm not stating them to convince you, but to make clear to you why I need not even try.

But for once, just for once, I'd like Anamika to openly admit that any defense of Israel is indefensible. It would at least have the ring of honesty and truth rather than the banjo note of hypocrisy and lies....

That, stating plain unadorned truth, for her, would be a step in the right direction - a step forward.

#52
temporal
URL
April 2, 2008
02:25 PM

And we as a Nation or as a People, are not subject to your judgment or approval. Judgment is in the Hand of G-d, not man.

whose god?

mine did not approve of this

he wants BOTH to live as equals - with diginity and legal protection

***

ana:

So, fuck that bullshit

is there a GODWIN equivalent for resorting to frothing?



#53
temporal
URL
April 2, 2008
02:30 PM

morris:

may be/may be not

but it is also very necessary to counter paid israeli goebbels

;)

#54
temporal
URL
April 2, 2008
02:30 PM

morris:

may be/may be not

but it is also very necessary to counter paid israeli goebbels

;)

#55
Morris
April 2, 2008
02:53 PM

"So far as I'm concerned, G-d gave me and all the other Children of Israel all of the Land of Israel with borders defined in the Torah and in the end, those will be the borders of my country. Full stop."

Woh Woh Woh God never gave any body any thing. No wonder we are having trouble. Where did this come from. Some people say God told us to take care of all non believers. If we go along with yours, how about that one. God said nothing for crying out loud to any body. This is all man made. Let us accept that for the sake of peace and harmony.

And let us be a little realistic and talk about issues rather than holocaust and genocide.

#56
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 2, 2008
03:15 PM

"The Jew the new Nazi: the Palestinians the new Jews. holocaust by any name."

Repeating this mantra does not make it believable.


Morris,

Repeating this mantra is precisely what makes it believable. Our Canadian Göbbels learned very well from the Nazis.

But a picture is worth a thousand words, and the picture that has our Canadian Göbbels steaming and repeating mantras is this one. But the link here is the history of Amin al-Husseini, the mentor of Yassir Arafat. But the telling photo, the one that ties it all together is the photo of Amin al-Husseini .... President of World Islamic Congress (IOC) in the last years of his life.

#57
commonsense
April 2, 2008
03:24 PM

ruvy:

"The Rav Kahane, may his memory be for a blessing and may G-d avenge his blood, taught me never to plead, or beg or even attempt to reason over what is the Holy Writ."

no comment needed

#58
commonsense
April 2, 2008
03:28 PM

Temp:

""So, fuck that bullshit"" (Ruvy)

is there a GODWIN equivalent for resorting to frothing?"

would be fuckers of bullshit would be well-advised to use protection; preferably double-bagging. bullshit and horseshit are prime breeding grounds for tetanus...

#59
Anamika
April 2, 2008
03:34 PM

Temp bhai - kya kaha tha maine:
yeh chahe kitna halla kar le, vapas zaroor aayega,
Godwin mile na mile, bechare khuda miyan ko zaroor ghaseet ke saath layega. ;-)

Ruvy: God gave land to the Jews? Is that the same god that then sent a son down to die on the cross at "the hands of jews" and thus sanction and justify the killing of the jews by the believers of the cross? And is that the same god gave the divine right to Muslims to kill the unbelievers, including the jews?

Each time you write here, you expose yourself as a religious fanatic and no different from Mullah Omar and company...

Btw as re: your statement. I don't hide my moral or ideological stance by trying to peddle fanaticism as "negotiation" or "dialogue" as Israel does. So let me state it as UNEQUIVOCALLY as possible: NOBODY DESERVES A HOMELAND BASED ON INJUSTICE AND SUFFERING OF ANOTHER. That includes EVERY single criteria including religion, race, language etc. And yes, that view is informed by MY faith as a Hindu which believes in karma and in this case karma would mean that such an enterprise - based on misery of others - will eventually meet a similarly miserable end.

Your little rant on how god gave you the land reminds me of the Afrikaaners in apartheid South Africa who used to claim that "god had given the land to white people." They even celebrated that idea with a national holiday - Day of the Covenant - which incidentally got abolished when "god" proved that he didn't agree at all. But "god" is now busy getting old South Africans to teach Israel the ways of imposing apartheid on the "natives" over there. There was a very long report in the Guardian last year on Israel-RSA apartheid policy connections..google it, I am sure you'll find it.






#60
commonsense
April 2, 2008
03:37 PM

Ruvy:

""And we as a Nation or as a People, are not subject to your judgment or approval. Judgment is in the Hand of G-d, not man.""

as for me judging others, ah that's a different story! as in...

""So, fuck that bullshit."" (non-judgementally of course)

""It's not Judaism anyway"" (i will decide what it is, with the help of kahane)

""it is just the whining of just another scared kike pleading for special treatment - equality."" (as the chosen people we hate equality, in a non-judgemental way of course.)

""The only Jew who pleads is scared shitless and cursed with a ghetto mentality."" (need more evidence of my commitment to non-judgementalism?)

""Any Jew who pleads in the face of obvious Jew-hatred deserves all the contempt the non-Jew heaps on him."" (non-judgemental contempt of course!)

Hows the hunt for them "pathan jews"? any takers so far??




#61
commonsense
April 2, 2008
03:43 PM

Anamika:

""kya kaha tha maine:
yeh chahe kitna halla kar le, vapas zaroor aayega""

with my photographic memory, i remember your prediction too well. issey literal moo lagganey sey koi kaam nahin baneyga. (no need to engage with him in a rational manner, since he has explicity renounced reason) hence mockery and ridicule, that expose him, in a non-judgemental way of course, is probably the way to go. Considering that God is watching over him directly and has promised him all sorts of goodies, no clue as to why he even bothers to express his so-called views....well, we do need some "so-called" entertainment from time to time.

#62
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 2, 2008
04:25 PM

Woh Woh Woh God never gave any body any thing.

Really, Morris?

This chapter of the Tana"kh says different. Let's set it out for you to read.

Bereshit - Genesis
Chapter 17


1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, HaShem appeared to Abram, and said unto him: 'I am G-d Almighty; walk before Me, and be thou wholehearted.

2 And I will make My covenant between Me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.'

3 And Abram fell on his face; and G-d talked with him, saying:

4 'As for Me, behold, My covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be the father of a multitude of nations.

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for the father of a multitude of nations have I made thee.

6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and thee and thy seed after thee throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a G-d unto thee and to thy seed after thee.

8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land of thy sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their G-d.'

9 And G-d said unto Abraham: 'And as for thee, thou shalt keep My covenant, thou, and thy seed after thee throughout their generations.

10 This is My covenant, which ye shall keep, between Me and you and thy seed after thee: every male among you shall be circumcised.

11 And ye shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of a covenant betwixt Me and you.

12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every male throughout your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any foreigner, that is not of thy seed.

13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised; and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

14 And the uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken My covenant.'

15 And G-d said unto Abraham: 'As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.

16 And I will bless her, and moreover I will give thee a son of her; yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples shall be of her.'

17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart: 'Shall a child be born unto him that is a hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?'

18 And Abraham said unto G-d: 'Oh that Ishmael might live before Thee!'

19 And G-d said: ''Nay, but Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son; and thou shalt call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his seed after him.

20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee; behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

21 But My covenant will I establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.'


22 And He left off talking with him, and G-d went up from Abraham.

23 And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house, and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as G-d had said unto him.

24 And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.

25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.

26 In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son.

27 And all the men of his house, those born in the house, and those bought with money of a foreigner, were circumcised with him.


But this chapter doesn't say it all, so let's be a bit more specific.
The first eight verses of this chapter of the Tana"kh specifies this land, once known as Canaan to be the inheritance of Abraham. Let's set it out for you to read.

Bereshit - Genesis
Chapter 12


1 Now HaShem said unto Abram: 'Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto the land that I will show thee.

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and be thou a blessing.

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and him that curseth thee will I curse; and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed.'

4 So Abram went, as HaShem had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him; and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

5 And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.

6 And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Shechem, unto the terebinth of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land.

7 And HaShem appeared unto Abram, and said: 'Unto thy seed will I give this land'; and he builded there an altar unto HaShem, who appeared unto him.

8 And he removed from thence unto the mountain on the east of Beth-el, and pitched his tent, having Beth-el on the west, and Ai on the east; and he builded there an altar unto HaShem, and called upon the name of HaShem.


This is our claim to this country, not the Balfour Declaration, nor the UN Partition, not any man-made treaty or foolishness. Without this claim, there is NO reason for a Jew to want to come home. Without this claim, there is merely a lawyer pushing a camel through a sewing needle. All this other "paperwork" has been to enable the fulfillment of a prophecy that our people would be gathered home from the four corners of the earth to return home in triumph to our homeland - to fulfill the Charge that G-d gave us.

We have not yet returned in triumph, and we are certainly not fulfilling our Divinely given Charge. As you correctly point out, the weak regime of traitors in Jerusalem is blatantly insincere. And it is not merely insincere to the Arabs, it is insincere to the Jews they are supposed to protect.

And let us be absolutely clear here. This is not merely said in the Tana"kh, the Hebrew Bible, it is also stated in the Qur'an, that this land was given to the Children of Israel.

So, it is theoretically possible for men of good faith, rabbis and imams or qadis, to come to an agreement over this country based on the 1919 agreement between Feisal of Makka and Medina and Haim Weitzmann. Indeed, I had been working on just such a project when I started writing for Blogcritics (the parent site of Desicritics) in late 2005. But the second Lebanon War and other events in early 2006 dashed chances for such meetings to occur for reasons I'm not at liberty to go into here.

It is not my desire to see a war. It is my preference to see a solution where the Kingdom of Jordan becomes the center of "Palestinian" Arab identity, with Arabs living in this country, all of them, receiving Jordanian citizenship, that they may participate in the national life of a nation and not be stateless or in danger of being stateless.

Those living in Israel would be expected to obey Israeli law and pay Israeli taxes, with a portion of those taxes remitted to the Kingdom of Jordan. Those willing to live in peace in Israel could keep their land; those who desire to reside elsewhere would have the opportunity to do so, but would not be forced off the lands they till.

They would choose their own leaders and live in their own towns and villages in peace, under Israeli sovereignty. In addition, Israel would undertake to extend its kupat Holim system, system of medical care, to Jordan, so that all the residents of Israel and Jordan could have quality medical care.

If the Arabs here were not rebelling against Israeli authority, there would be no reason for checkpoints, for military patrols, for walls ruining the land, and all the other aspects of despotism that Israel has been forced to adopt in Judea and Samaria. Resident Arabs should and would be treated with the respect they are due as free individuals, ex-pats with rights to live here. Finally, and most importantly, Israel would undertake to see to it that all Arabs were paid equally as Israelis. From my point of view, this is the most heinous crime of the present regime with respect to Arabs, as it not only cheats Arabs, it jades Israelis and makes them contemptuous of honest labor.

This would be peace, not war!! But I do not foresee this happening.

What I foresee happening is war, terrible war, with many thousands of dead in this country, both Arab and Jew. I foresee massacres of Arabs in response to an Arab missile bombardment that will leave flaming cities and factories on our coast, and which will cause Jews to rise and kill as many Arabs as they can in vengeance.

I foresee a foreign army of occupation attempting to take over, and I foresee terrible events as a result of this. The foreign fleets are already sitting off the coast, foreign agents infest Gaza like cockroaches, and there are at least five American military bases here. The day will come when those bases will be used to overthrown the Israeli regime.

Each day appears to bring this closer and closer.

#63
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 2, 2008
04:49 PM

I see we're getting the Hindi "comments" now.

Ma la'asót?

I have a longish comment that rather answers one of Morris' questions but the system does not seem to want to let it out.

YAAWWWNNNNN.....

Nothing else to say to the rest of you, unless bd wishes to pipe up....

#64
Anamika
April 2, 2008
04:55 PM

CS: agreed. I guess reason took a long break when "pathan jews" made an appearance. :-)

lekin i responded not only to the fanatic but also to counter the propaganda which Israeli government has been feeding India re: situation there. They build on the unease re: Islam amongst some Hindus, draw similarities between Kashmir and Jerusalem, add Pakistan to the mix and then - with a sleight of hand only rivalled by OIC's Islamophobia report - link it to their "national" enterprise vis a vis Palestine. And far too many of us (including some of our leaders) swallow that unhesitatingly. And that needs to be countered with information and not only humour - although a combination of both is probably best. :-)

#65
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 2, 2008
05:06 PM

Woh Woh Woh God never gave any body any thing.

Really, Morris?

This chapter of the Tana"kh says different. Let's set it out for you to read.

Bereshit - Genesis
Chapter 17


1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, HaShem appeared to Abram, and said unto him: 'I am G-d Almighty; walk before Me, and be thou wholehearted.

2 And I will make My covenant between Me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.'

3 And Abram fell on his face; and G-d talked with him, saying:

4 'As for Me, behold, My covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be the father of a multitude of nations.

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for the father of a multitude of nations have I made thee.

6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and thee and thy seed after thee throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a G-d unto thee and to thy seed after thee.

8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land of thy sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their G-d.'

9 And G-d said unto Abraham: 'And as for thee, thou shalt keep My covenant, thou, and thy seed after thee throughout their generations.

10 This is My covenant, which ye shall keep, between Me and you and thy seed after thee: every male among you shall be circumcised.

11 And ye shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of a covenant betwixt Me and you.

12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every male throughout your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any foreigner, that is not of thy seed.

13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised; and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

14 And the uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken My covenant.'

15 And G-d said unto Abraham: 'As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.

16 And I will bless her, and moreover I will give thee a son of her; yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples shall be of her.'

17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart: 'Shall a child be born unto him that is a hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?'

18 And Abraham said unto G-d: 'Oh that Ishmael might live before Thee!'

19 And G-d said: ''Nay, but Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son; and thou shalt call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his seed after him.

20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee; behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

21 But My covenant will I establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.'


22 And He left off talking with him, and G-d went up from Abraham.

23 And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house, and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as G-d had said unto him.

24 And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.

25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.

26 In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son.

27 And all the men of his house, those born in the house, and those bought with money of a foreigner, were circumcised with him.


But this chapter doesn't say it all, so let's be a bit more specific. The first eight verses of this chapter of the Tana"kh specifies this land, once known as Canaan to be the inheritance of Abraham. Let's set it out for you to read.

Bereshit - Genesis
Chapter 12


1 Now HaShem said unto Abram: 'Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto the land that I will show thee.

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and be thou a blessing.

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and him that curseth thee will I curse; and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed.'

4 So Abram went, as HaShem had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him; and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

5 And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.

6 And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Shechem, unto the terebinth of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land.

7 And HaShem appeared unto Abram, and said: 'Unto thy seed will I give this land'; and he builded there an altar unto HaShem, who appeared unto him.

8 And he removed from thence unto the mountain on the east of Beth-el, and pitched his tent, having Beth-el on the west, and Ai on the east; and he builded there an altar unto HaShem, and called upon the name of HaShem.


This is our claim to this country, not the Balfour Declaration, nor the UN Partition, not any man-made treaty or foolishness. Without this claim, there is NO reason for a Jew to want to come home. Without this claim, there is merely a lawyer pushing a camel through a sewing needle. All this other "paperwork" has been to enable the fulfillment of a prophecy that our people would be gathered home from the four corners of the earth to return home in triumph to our homeland - to fulfill the Charge that G-d gave us.

We have not yet returned in triumph, and we are certainly not fulfilling our Divinely given Charge. As you correctly point out, the weak regime of traitors in Jerusalem is blatantly insincere. And it is not merely insincere to the Arabs, it is insincere to the Jews they are supposed to protect.

And let us be absolutely clear here. This is not merely said in the Tana"kh, the Hebrew Bible, it is also stated in the Qur'an, that this land was given to the Children of Israel.

So, it is theoretically possible for men of good faith, rabbis and imams or qadis, to come to an agreement over this country based on the 1919 agreement between Feisal of Makka and Medina and Haim Weitzmann. Indeed, I had been working on just such a project when I started writing for Blogcritics (the parent site of Desicritics) in late 2005. But the second Lebanon War and other events in early 2006 dashed chances for such meetings to occur for reasons I'm not at liberty to go into here.

It is not my desire to see a war. It is my preference to see a solution where the Kingdom of Jordan becomes the center of "Palestinian" Arab identity, with Arabs living in this country, all of them, receiving Jordanian citizenship, that they may participate in the national life of a nation and not be stateless or ever in danger of being stateless. Israeli Arabs who are now citizens would also become citizens of the Kingdom of Jordan, if they so desired to.

Those living in Israel would be expected to obey Israeli law and pay Israeli taxes, with a portion of those taxes collected in Gaza and Judea and Samaria remitted to the Kingdom of Jordan. Those willing to live in peace in Israel could keep their land; those who desire to reside elsewhere would have the opportunity to do so, but would not be forced off the lands they till.

They would choose their own leaders and live in their own towns and villages in peace, under Israeli sovereignty. In addition, Israel would undertake to extend its kupat Holim system, system of medical care, to Jordan, so that all the residents of Israel and Jordan could have quality medical care.

If the Arabs here were not rebelling against Israeli authority, there would be no reason for checkpoints, for military patrols, for walls ruining the land, and all the other aspects of despotism that Israel has been forced to adopt in Judea and Samaria. Resident Arabs should and would be treated with the respect they are due as free individuals, ex-pats with rights to live here. Finally, and most importantly, Israel would undertake to see to it that all Arabs were paid equally as Israelis. From my point of view, this is the most heinous crime of the present regime with respect to Arabs, as it not only cheats Arabs, it jades Israelis and makes them contemptuous of honest labor.

This would be peace, not war!! But I do not foresee this happening.

What I foresee happening is war, terrible war, with many thousands of dead in this country, both Arab and Jew. I foresee massacres of Arabs in response to an Arab missile bombardment that will leave flaming cities and factories on our coast, and which will cause Jews to rise and kill as many Arabs as they can in vengeance.

I foresee a foreign army of occupation attempting to take over, and I foresee terrible events as a result of this. The foreign fleets are already sitting off the coast, foreign agents infest Gaza like cockroaches, and there are at least five American military bases here. The day will come when those bases will be used to overthrown the Israeli regime and Judah will come against Jerusalem.

Each day appears to bring this closer and closer.

#66
temporal
URL
April 2, 2008
05:40 PM

t: hello
G: speak up my child
t: hello Allah
G: be quick my child, am busy
t: i'll be quick O Allah, what did you tell
G: I made no such promises
t: ...ruvy
G: I can read you mind my child...now go and let me golf
t: thank you Allah, may you bless Yourself

#67
Anamika
April 2, 2008
07:14 PM

#64: serious delusion but this bit takes the (divine) cake: "If the Arabs here were not rebelling against Israeli authority, there would be no reason for checkpoints, for military patrols, for walls ruining the land, and all the other aspects of despotism that Israel has been forced to adopt in Judea and Samaria."

Damn! How come more gods aren't real estate agents? May be I should meet up with god and ask for Switzerland for my progeny...hmmm, wonder if the moolah in swiss banks would be added to the divine gift..

#68
PH
URL
April 2, 2008
08:41 PM

Anamika,

Should the Swiss god listen, I will undo my unbelief and convert to your faith - moolah Swisseruddin, anyone?

temp, sorry don't like golf:)

#69
Morris
April 2, 2008
09:07 PM

Ruvy
First I thought you were joking and I am missing the humour. But as I kept on reading I realized that you are serious. Or are you? Why should I believe your God any more than Omar Mullah's God. Give me one good reason.

As far as Arabs settling in Jordan, is'nt West bank a part of Jordan until recently. And that too Israel is stealing a bit by bit illegally. It is very noble of you to suggest that they should be equally paid. I thought that should not be an issue. Are'nt they paid that way now?

I am not passimist like you are. I think wisdom will prevail and they will learn to live with each other peacefully sooner or later. As it is now more likely later.

God has never told any thing to any body. Nor has he/she/it has written anything. All these prophesies and other things are all mumbo jumbo some make sense some totally erralavent and counter productive. If we start bringing these kind of stuff here we cannot have meaningful discussion.

#70
Chandra
April 3, 2008
02:21 AM


Does anybody know who Mohammad Dahlan is?
Does anyody know his contribution to the current civil war in Palestine?
Does anybody know what business interests he has in London

#71
temporal
URL
April 3, 2008
02:33 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Dahlan

#72
Chandra
April 3, 2008
03:09 PM

Temp ji

That was a rhetorical question :-)

Dahlan is a Mossad plant!!

#73
temporal
URL
April 3, 2008
05:07 PM

Morris:

does mullah omar joke?
does osama joke?

neither does this mullah
;)

chandra:

you got me;)

maybe he is
maybe he plays both?

#74
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 3, 2008
06:44 PM

Why should I believe your God any more than Omar Mullah's God. Give me one good reason.

Morris, why should I give you any reasons at all? What do you think I am, some Christian missionary hustling his god-on-a-stick? Get intelligent and get sharp! I can tell you why I believe what I do, but I cannot tell you what to believe. And I won't. It is not my job to persuade you, only to lay ideas in front of you for your intelligent perusal.

You can reject them, as you have, to wit:
God has never told any thing to any body. Nor has he/she/it has written anything. All these prophesies and other things are all mumbo jumbo
.

You can mock my ideas in scorn, as does Anamika, the "open minded", card carrying, BJP member who just cannot come out and say straight up, that she detests Jews, or you can pour lies upon lies upon my ideas, as does Temporal, with his never ending mantra of "Jews are Nazis". That picture of "Palestinians" saluting just like the Nazis they learned from, and those photos of Arafat's mentor Amin al-Husseini with his god, Hitler, must really piss him off.

Bottom line, Morris. I'm not interested in convincing you of anything. I live here, not you. So I know far better than all the self-righteous finger-waggers from overseas what goes on here. What you think you know does not matter because your knowledge is lacking.

And you are rejecting the knowledge you are being given.

How different you are from Dr. Dasgupta, who has at least studied this country and spoken with some officials here....

And do note, Morris, I'm not trying to convince him of anything either. He has his own sources of knowledge that he turns to.

I bid you a good evening. It's late in Israel.

#75
temporal
URL
April 3, 2008
07:43 PM

t: hello Allah
G: yes my child?
t: are some people more delusional than others
G: you know the answer my child
t: just checking O Allah...can we do something about it?
G: yeah, pray
t: will it help?
G: no! but you might feel better

#76
Anamika
April 4, 2008
03:29 AM

AN UPDATE ON BID TO GOD INC RE SWITZERLAND:

Dear stakeholders: Our people have been in touch with God's people re: setting up a meeting about the granting of Holy Switzerland to Anamika & Co's progeny in eternity, and of course, to any willing believers/shareholders. Early volunteers like PH get preferred stock options.

At this stage, we are working towards a sympathetic response, but it does appear that as with many M&As undertaken by Indians in the recent past, this too shall end up being bitterly fought. Apparently, transferring of Swiss assets may impact the fortunes of three other claimants to "chosen people" status, especially as many of their accounts are held in Swiss banks.

But god appears to be far more amenable to our offer than pre-Mittal Arcelor's Mr Dolle. This lack of ethnic/nationalist sentiment on part of God Inc has led us to conclude that this rather murky global enterprise is led most likely by a hedge fund.

Meanwhile, our shares jumped 2% as rumours of God Inc's favourable view of our bid - in face of hostility of the 3 chosen peoples - reached the markets.

Watch this space for updates.

#77
commonsense
April 4, 2008
06:50 AM

Morris:

Woh Woh Woh God never gave any body any thing.

Ruvy:

"Really, Morris?

This chapter of the Tana"kh says different. Let's set it out for you to read.

Bereshit - Genesis
Chapter 17

1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, HaShem appeared to Abram, and said unto him: 'I am G-d Almighty; walk before Me, and be thou wholehearted....etc. etc. etc>"

Temporal, our friend does "joke" except he does not quite know it. His response to Morris, "proving" that God apparently did parcel out land to "his people" (excluding Jews who don't agree with Kahane) above cannot be penned by anyone except jokers...

#78
commonsense
April 4, 2008
06:57 AM

Ruvy to Morris:

"Get intelligent and get sharp!"

Great joke! people who live in glass-houses should change their clothes in the basement...

#79
commonsense
April 4, 2008
07:02 AM

Ruvy:

"This is our claim to this country, not the Balfour Declaration, nor the UN Partition, not any man-made treaty or foolishness. Without this claim, there is NO reason for a Jew to want to come home. Without this claim, there is merely a lawyer pushing a camel through a sewing needle. All this other "paperwork" has been to enable the fulfillment of a prophecy that our people would be gathered home from the four corners of the earth to return home in triumph to our homeland - to fulfill the Charge that G-d gave us."

A serious joker this one!

#80
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 4, 2008
07:20 AM

You can mock my ideas in scorn, as does Anamika, the "open minded", card carrying, BJP member who just cannot come out and say straight up, that she detests Jews, or you can pour lies upon lies upon my ideas, as does Temporal, with his never ending mantra of "Jews are Nazis". That picture of "Palestinians" saluting just like the Nazis they learned from, and those photos of Arafat's mentor Amin al-Husseini with his god, Hitler, must really piss him off.

I apologize to you, Morris. I forgot to include in my list the [EDITED] who uses the screen name "commonsense"

His juvenile comments, most of which do not rise above the level of a junior high school child, prove the saying that common sense is anything but common. He is certainly lacking. He'll continue on, like a clown in a circus trying to get laughs from the fools in the big tent.

#81
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 4, 2008
07:43 AM

bd,

...that needs to be countered with information and not only humour -...

In the story, Karl-Yankel about how Soviet atheism puts Judaism on trial in Odessa, Isaac Babel shows how the moyel, the man who is accused of practicing a cult for circumcising a Jewish baby, makes a total fool of the Soviet prosecutor at the trial that is supposed to jail him, a man who he had circumcised when he himself was a baby. The Pravda correspondent, sitting in the courtroom, sends the note to him "humor, Sasha, use humor."

The pathetic fools, Anamika, Temporal and "Commonsense" are attempting to use humor, just like the paid Communist propagandist (that's what Pravda "correspondents" were) in Babel's story whom they unknowingly imitate.

It's interesting how life imitates art sometimes.

And the fools still try to put Judaism on trial.

This "defendant" won't play their stupid games.

#82
Anamika
April 4, 2008
08:13 AM

No Ruvy, you won't play games, or joke because you are too busy killing Palestinian children and stealing Palestinian land. You are no different from [EDITED, PERSONAL]

#83
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 4, 2008
11:40 AM

Let's look at some truth, instead of the lies spread by the "Sashas" of the modern age, the propagandists of the lies of a self righteous finger-wagger from overseas, a lady named Amamika.

From today's Jerusalem Post

PAGE ONE April 4, 2008

Watchdog slams Holland, Denmark for funding news agency that glorifies terror

by Gil Hoffman

The Netherlands and Denmark provide funding to a Palestinian news agency that glorifies terrorists, uses biased language and promotes hatred for Israel, Itamar Marcus and Barbara Crook of Palestinian Media Watch allege in a report obtained exclusively by The Jerusalem Post ahead of its official release on Friday.

Marcus and Crook monitored the Ma'an news agency's Arabic and English news coverage of the last few terrorist attacks in Israel and found that it repeatedly honored murderers as "martyrs" and referred to areas of pre-1967 Israel as "occupied Palestine."

They also found that stronger anti-Israel terminology was used in Ma'an's Arabic Web site than in its English one.

"We find it surprising and unfortunate that the governments of the Netherlands and Denmark continue to fund this hate journalism without demanding a change," Marcus and Crook wrote. "Hate incitement, including denial of Israel's existence and glorifying terror, is universally accepted as a paramount cause of continued Palestinian terror. These governments, together with governments who have blindly funded Palestinian schoolbooks, bear direct moral responsibility for the continued hatred that is being ingrained into future Palestinian generations, and bear a moral responsibility for the terror and its victims."

Frans Makken, the head of mission at the Dutch representative office in Ramallah, said such problems were rare at Ma'an and that his office would take steps to ensure that they did not reoccur.

"When this has come up before, we took it up with Ma'an," Makken said. "It was just a mistake of words. It happens rarely, if ever. Our office is involved in connecting people. If there has been a slip-up, we will bring it up with them. They are young journalists and their translations are being improved all the time."

Makken said this was only the second complaint his office had received in his three years in his post, the first being when the suicide bomber in a January 2007 terrorist attack was referred to as a "martyr."

"[The usage of such words] was not on purpose," Makken said. "It is something we are trying to avoid. The charter of the project [funding Ma'an] is to promote mutual understanding, which is the opposite of incitement. It is very far-fetched to say that Denmak and Holland are inciting terrorism."

The Danish Embassy and Foreign Ministry did not respond to repeated requests for comment.

Marcus said that by funding Ma'an, Denmark and the Netherlands bore direct moral responsibility for Ma'an's terror promotion.

"I am outraged by the myriad excuses from funding countries that refuse to accept responsibility for the hatred and terror promotion they fund," Marcus said. "Why is the Dutch representative trying to create a smoke screen for terror promotion by writing about 'translations' and 'slip-ups?'

"If Denmark and Holland are serious about not being branded themselves as terror promoters, they will stop making excuses for Ma'an and publicly give them an ultimatum: One more example of terror glorification or hate journalism and the funding is canceled. Until this is done, Denmark and Holland can be included among the countries that are part of the terror problem and not part of the solution."

In the report, Marcus and Crook found that Ma'an's Arabic reports glorified the Palestinian who recently murdered eight students at Jerusalem's Mercaz Harav Yeshiva, February's Dimona suicide terrorist, the killers of the two Israeli hikers and the terrorists who attacked a boys' high school with the very highest Islamic status attainable, elevating them to the status of shahids - "martyrs for Allah."

"In defining terrorist murderers as 'shahids,' Ma'an is by definition sending its readers a straightforward message of honor for the killers, and approval for the many murders," Marcus and Crook wrote.

In its English versions of these reports, according to Palestinian Media Watch, Ma'an neither honored the terrorists as "shahids" nor used the English term "martyrs."

In response, Ma'an noted that "The term shahid, as translated in the Hans Wehr Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic (page 572), may refer to one killed in action or a martyr." It said that "in the Palestinian cultural/religious tradition, the martyrdom aspect is significantly different from the Judeo-Christian understanding. Those who die as martyrs may be defending their wives or their property, not necessarily engaging in the Western notion of a holy crusade. The PMW interpretation, while undoubtedly held by some religious individuals, is not necessarily the general interpretation of these terms."

It defended its "use of the occupation concept" as stemming "from international law and internationally-recognized boundaries. In simple terms, Israeli forces operating in Tel Aviv may be considered Israeli security forces, while those in Bethlehem are occupying forces. Tel Aviv falls on the Israeli side of the Green Line. Bethlehem does not. That distinction is the crux of our decision-making.

"The example cited from February 29, 2008, uses the terms 'occupation authorities,' 'occupation municipality,' 'residents of... the territories occupied since 1948' and '"Israeli"' identity cards.' Taken out of context," it said, "these certainly sound like biased and offensive terms. When looked at more closely, however, they are terms that reflect both the uneasy ethnic distinctions of Israeli society and Israel's status, under international law, as an occupation force. The article refers to crackdowns on access to the Al-Aksa compound, an area in the Old City of east Jerusalem. Annexed following the 1967 war, east Jerusalem fell on the Palestinian side of the 1949 armistice line, the Green Line. Since 1967 the international community has considered it occupied territory, as do Palestinians.

"Ma'an's Arabic terminology reflects the internationally-recognized reality that the current Jerusalem municipal boundaries include Palestinian territory," it went on.

"In the two hours that The Jerusalem Post gave us to issue a formal response, we were not able to track down each cited article from our archives...

"Finally, our funding is issued through the Dutch and the Danish representative offices in Ramallah, who employ local, native Arabic speakers to assist in coordinating projects. We are fairly certain that they monitor our Arabic site in addition to our English one. Culturally-appropriate differences in terminology are, therefore, merely that and not an attempt to hoodwink our generous donors."

You can see a self portrait of "Palestinian" Arab society as presented by its own media at the link in this sentence.

Truth set against lies; truth presented with a clear conscience.

That's it for this week. The Sabbath is here - and I'm gone.

Shabbat Shalom,
Ruvy

#84
commonsense
April 4, 2008
11:55 AM

Ruvy:

(Exhibit 1):

""And we as a Nation or as a People, are not subject to your judgment or approval. Judgment is in the Hand of G-d, not man.""

Ruvy:
(Exhibit 2)
""I apologize to you, Morris. I forgot to include in my list the fool who uses the screen name "commonsense...His juvenile comments, most of which do not rise above the level of a junior high school child, The pathetic fools, Anamika, Temporal and "Commonsense"..."

Either our friend is (1) passing judgement here or (2) in his own private world, terms like "pathetic" and "fool" are positive labels or (3) most probably he is God since only God can judge.

#85
commonsense
April 4, 2008
12:03 PM

Ruvy:

""And let us be absolutely clear here. This is not merely said in the Tana"kh, the Hebrew Bible, it is also stated in the Qur'an, that this land was given to the Children of Israel.""

Amen, for this higher than high-schoolish standards of "truth" and "knowledge"!! Triangulated truth, confirmed not just by one holy book by two others too. Morris, dare you ask for any more proof?? You asked for one and you got three...

Any more inadvertent "jokes"?? It gets better each time our friend types up something.

#86
PH
URL
April 4, 2008
12:15 PM

LOL @ #75

It's a pity really. We laugh only as a wry chuckle ensues whn you hear something that's just too serious to comprehend.

#87
temporal
URL
April 4, 2008
01:57 PM

* killers hide behind religious skirt

* when rhyme n reason fail invoke god

(and comment on #82 for ana only - do you think they pay him by the word?)

also for ana:

keep us informed

my inside sources tell me bechtel and haliburton have the inside track

;)

#88
Anamika
April 4, 2008
08:57 PM

Funny that ruvy is complaining about european press, especially given that recently a German politician compared the Dalai Lama to the Ayatollah (I think the latter cringed while the former accepted it in compassion).

So European/American press bends over backwards to not offend the Jewish "lobby" (ref Mearsheimer). Btw - what is Palestinian "terror" except what was acceptable in the case of the Azad Hind Fauz or African National Conference. Sorry to point it out but "one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter."

Thanks temp bhai - I think he gets paid by the word, exactly like Dickens. :-)

#89
commonsense
April 4, 2008
09:21 PM

Ironically we do need the likes of Ruvy, just to remind us of the outer boundaries of reason.

And despite his many promises, he will not disappear since, even though he may or may not be paid, he really is doing this for his Kahane based organization - the local cyber rep of the organization that has been banned everywhere else for its violent legacy; he/she seeks refuge in cyberspace and searches for pathan jews. Earlier he did day something like "everytime I talk to a non-Jew, I have to be prepared to kill". Not sure if this applies to cyberspace too...does he/she has a store of viruses everytime he/she engages with a non-jew in cyberspace. But what if the person on the other end happens to be a Pathan who has not yet heard the good news that she/he is in reality Jewish??

#90
Chandra
April 5, 2008
05:29 AM

Ruvy 82

So now Jerusalem post has become a credible source on Palestinians? You must be joking. Why dont you quote some Al Jazeera.....ooops....Al Jazeera is not managed by the mossad eh! :-)

When will your Israeli folks realise that you are on the wrong and your utter humiliation of the palestinians can matched by no other country in history. You, your country and your soldiers humiliate Palestinian young and old and women on a daily basis to remind them of your superiority. You are very clever and you have done to the palestinians exactly what the Britts did to us in 1905- The partition of bengal. Divide and rule. All your arguments are the same ones the british advanced for nearly a hundred years in India. The bloody same arguments. How can you and your people sleep knowing well the utter humiliation that you bring upon the people whose land you occupy. How utterly heartless can you be? really, tell us, do you Israelis have any heart at all?




#91
Morris
April 5, 2008
11:08 AM

Ruvy
This is all becoming too complicated. I like to keep it simple. Honestly, you don't really think God told us all these things such as who owns what land and believers and non believers division and a lot of other things depending upon who you ask? And if you think yes he did. Then is there way we can determine who among us has received a right message from God. Keep it simple. My question to you, is 'nt it subjective? I respect your view and if you honestly think you got the right message, fair enough. My difficulty is how would I know Mullah Omar did not get right message too? Pehaps you can help.

#92
commonsense
April 5, 2008
11:31 AM

Ruvy:

"And the fools still try to put Judaism on trial."

An apt description of what our friend and his group are trying to do...

#93
commonsense
April 5, 2008
11:42 AM

Although it is great to focus on the actual arguments rather than the ideology that informs the argument, given the fact that our friend Ruvy offers his belief as truth rather than arguments, those interested in the source of his beliefs, might want to consult this wikipedia entry on his hero, Rabbi Kahane. Just a google search on Kahane will also bring up interesting and amazing facts about Kahane and why he was banned and boycotted in Israel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meir_Kahane

Our friend will obviously label any critique of Kahane's obvious racism as "slander". Those new to Ruvy may not know that a few months ago he claimed that the holocaust happened because the Jews in Europe had strayed away from its "real" teachings as demanded by prophet Kahane. That is they were not fundamentalist followers of the Torah...

#94
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 5, 2008
04:45 PM

This article at Blogcritics Magazine Thoughts on Rabbi Meir Kahane, z"l, hy"d, and What I Owe Him, covers rather extensively my own views on the martyred Rav.

The tenor of the comments here at this site should explain why I would not waste any efforts posting such an article here, but in addition, policy at Blogcritics prevents me from re-posting the article here (Aaman, if I'm wrong, tell me).

I remind you of a couple of points.

1. I lived through what I'm talking about. I do not need articles at Wikipedia to educate me, even if you do.

2. I made clear in the article, as well as in the comment thread that followed, that Rav Kahane, z"l, hy"d, was a product of his times, and it will be necessary to move beyond his ideas to effectively make the Redemption real and to effect reconciliation between the Children of Israel and the Children of Ishmael.

Those of you who really have open minds will read my article at Blogcritics, as well as the comment thread that follows, and perhaps comment. I won't hold my breath waiting, though.

#95
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 5, 2008
06:51 PM

In spite of the slanted captions for the photos of this article from the Jerusalem Post, it explains in clear detail what life is like in Samaria and Judea. No phony Wikipedia articles filled with lies. Just facts.

From the text of the article:
Benny Gal, 27, one of the young men from Yitzhar, says that the very fact that there is such a need for rapid response is proof the IDF is not doing its job.

"Instead of destroying the enemy when necessary to defend citizens of the state, the IDF is constantly trying to avoid confrontations," he says. "Instead of fighting like proud Jews in their rightful homeland, the IDF has been inundated with the Christian morality of turning the other cheek. Look at what is happening in Sderot.

"It's not that we want to fight with anyone. We just want to live our lives. But if we are forced to fight we need to make them understand that the blood of a Jew is redder than the blood of an Arab."

Gal says that the IDF regularly confiscates M-16s used by members of Yitzhar's rapid response team "for no reason."

"The state does not go out of its way to help people living on the frontlines," he says. "Normative people who have no criminal backgrounds suddenly receive a laconic letter, 'Please deposit your rifle at the Civil Administration office immediately. If you fail to do so, you will be subject to severe legal measures.'"

The IDF's sporadic confiscation of rifles used by members of Yitzhar's rapid response team makes it difficult to keep the team ready for combat, says Danziger.


Also from the text:
But Mishmeret Yesha also makes a major policy demand of the settlement in which the rapid response team operates: No entry permits for Arabs. That's the reason Danziger refuses to train a team in his hometown, Efrat, and other settlements that allow Arabs in.

Danziger points to the recent terrorist attack at Yeshivat Mercaz Harav as a case in point. The terrorist who killed eight yeshiva students, Ala Abu Dhaim, a driver, had been employed by the yeshiva, according to Abu Dhaim's family.

"My neighbors regularly hire Arabs to do construction work, to clean their houses and to do all sorts of other chores," he says. "I've stopped speaking with them. Anyone who is willing to endanger me and my family to save a few bucks is no friend of mine.

"It is a complete waste of time to train a rapid response team that operates in an institution or a settlement if Arabs are allowed free entry. Either the Arabs that are coming and going will commit the terror attack or they will pass on information to somebody else who will do it."


Unfortunately, at this point, the mukhtars in the villages and towns are so under the spell of either Hamas or the PLO, both of which have the stink of the Wahhabi murderers all over them, that it is not safe to trust Arabs with work in a Jewish village. But as the article points out, some villages employ Arabs (at sub-minimum wages to boot) anyway, thinking that they can save a few shekels. Those "saved" shekels get spent on funerals of dead Jews killed by Arab infiltrations. This is reality.

#96
commonsense
April 5, 2008
10:19 PM

nobody assumes that the wikipedia is the sole fount of truth...it is just an easy reference point. regardless, nobody except for the deluded, believes that god himself or herself promised a piece of land to a particular chose people, as long as they behave themselves, ritually and behaviourally. the rest is all pintless, but nevertheless entertaining distraction. our friend can dump the entire torah on us or on those jews he believes have strayed from the one true path, but it will only betray is lack of grasp on reality. if our friend really believes that god personally offered a piece of real estate to him and his followers, good luck to anyone who is foolhardy enough to engage in a rational discussion with him...end of discussion. the only thing our friend can do is to rely on his uzi to settle arguments...

#97
commonsense
April 5, 2008
10:23 PM

Ruvy:

""Those of you who really have open minds will read my article at Blogcritics..""

I did, and witnessed self-delusion first hand. Besides, my mind was so open, my brains fell out. Not that I needed them to make sense of it all...

#98
Anamika
April 6, 2008
04:43 AM

Status update re: Switzerland deal appears to be in jeopardy by market rumours of God Inc's mounting losses resulting from a long series of dodgy real estate deals which have not only been conducted on false premises, involved massive forgeries, and not executed to the satisfaction on none of the parties concerned (investigations appear to be pending from regulatory authorities but no one at God Inc is ready to speak without sub-peonas). Obviously this is not beneficial to our overall valuation of God Inc. and raises grave doubts about its ability to carry through the Swiss deal.

Still the lawyers are convinced that based on prior experience Switzerland may eventually be available to Anamika et al, with all assets, in perpetuity.

Sticking point in the negotiations is God Inc's insistence that we have no guarantor assurance re: the transaction, and will relinquish all rights to future liability claims resulting from what appears to be a highly insecure transaction - simply put, God Inc does not want to know, once the deal is done, how it shall actually be executed nor shall provide guarantees of the same. Seems this is a pattern with God Inc's shady deals - beginning of course with a rather hostile, asset-poor piece of land initially titled Holy.

PH (and other stakeholders): we may have to forego God Inc's role on Switzerland and just try colonizing it humanly rather than with divine sanction. :-)

#99
commonsense
April 6, 2008
05:52 AM

anamika, great piece :)! No doubt our friend will respond with an avalanche from the torah or better still, some book by Rav Kahane, may G-d redeem his blood...

#100
commonsense
April 6, 2008
09:13 PM

Hannah Arendt, one of the greatest Jewish philosophers:

In 1950 Hannah Arendt, who had spent so many years writing out of Jewish despair, wrote: "The Jews are convinced that the world owes them a righting of the wrongs of two thousand years and, more specifically, a compensation for the catastrophe of European Jewry which, in their opinion, was not simply a crime of Nazi Germany but of the whole civilized world. The Arabs, on the other hand, reply that two wrongs do not make a right and that no code of morals can justify the persecution of one people in an attempt to relieve the persecution of the other

#101
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 7, 2008
01:31 PM

The hatred and lies coming from three or four writers who have commented on this article - and that is what they are: lies - are exposed
by this piece on S'derót
in the New York Times.

From the article:

...to a growing number across the political spectrum, it has inspired a collective rescue operation.

"In Tel Aviv, you have great cafes, nice clothes and you live an illusion as if everything is all right," reflected Ilanit Swissa, a theater director and one of about a dozen liberal intellectuals setting up camp in Sderot who moved here a few months ago to work with high school actors. "But it is not true. Here I feel like I am
contributing something. We are at war and you feel it here."


Intellectuals like Hannah Arendt used to sniff their contempt of the Jewish state from their comfortable exiles in New York, in much the same way that many of Ilanit Swissa's friends who still sniff their contempt of their fellow Israelis from their delusory shelter of well being Tel Aviv.

When Arab missiles fall on Tel Aviv and turn its buildings into towers of flame, these intellectuals will sing a different tune; until then, they will sound no different than the "smart kikes" who think they know all the answers from their exiles - useful idiots in the hands of those who would see us murdered off in glee.

Bottom line:

Were Israel stealing Arab land here and committing genocide here, the Arab population of Judea and Samaria would fall dramatically; it has risen. Satellite dishes would not sprout from the houses and apartment buildings in the Arab villages and towns I see along Route 60 on the way from Jerusalem to Ma'ale Levona. Now that the PLO cannot steal every single dime of aid meant for Arabs here due to the presence of Hamas in Judea and Samaria (not to mention every Arab Israeli village in the Jerusalem area), local Arabs are beginning to prosper. Billboards are cropping up in Arabic, advertising paint manufacturers, banks and radio stations. Genocide and land theft does not encourage these things to happen. I may not like Hamas because they want to murder me off, but at least they are honest in what they say their intent is. I can live with that honesty. In addition, they actually try to benefit the resident Arabs - at least until they begin bombardment of Jewish towns and cities, when the local Arabs will get used as human shields in the fight for "Filastin".

So, in the face of lies you won't play games, or joke because you are too busy killing Palestinian children and stealing Palestinian land...; calumny The Jew the new Nazi: the Palestinians the new Jews. Holocaust by any name.... and sheer stupidity, Hannah Arendt, one of the greatest Jewish philosophers:, someone has to proclaim truth continually and make sure he doesn't quit.

The liars, calumnists and useful idiots aren't quitting....

#102
commonsense
April 7, 2008
02:28 PM

sorry bd, your theme has been inadvertently hijacked...such however, is sometimes the tenor and trajectory of cyber discussions...

unfortunately, (liberally paraphrased) "The liar, calumnist, useful and sometimes mildly entertaining uzi-armed idiot isn't quitting...."

#103
commonsense
April 7, 2008
02:34 PM

irritatingly entertaining quote from our friend with direct access to God...

"And now those who worship at these idolatrous temples lust after that which their eyes lead them to, and chase after what their heart seeks. They shall suffer the appropriate punishment at the Hand of G-d."

#104
commonsense
April 7, 2008
02:41 PM

ruvy:

"Truth set against lies; truth presented with a clear conscience."

Ummm, truth such as the one and only true G-d handing out real estate to the one and only chosen people, minus the "kikes" and the "yids", and of course minus all those who follow false gods and especially those who, horror of horrors indulge in idolatory...clear conscience? perhaps, but how about just a pinch of logic and perhaps rationality?

#105
commonsense
April 7, 2008
02:46 PM

Ruvy:

"I know who my enemies are, and whom I'll have to kill, should it come to that."

Hmmm, apparently the true God hands out real estate, then leaves the true believers to their own devices; devices such as Uzis for the killing sprees (should it come to that, of course...since it is naturally all defensive and nothing but)

#106
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 7, 2008
04:17 PM

bd,

I thought I'd give you a comment count on your "hijacked" article. I thought it might be illustrative of the nature of the "hijackers".

The count starts at comment #48.

We'll start with me, as comment #48 is mine.

Ruvy in Jerusalem:..13 comments (1 double posting)
Temporal:........... 8 comments (1 double posting)
Morris:............. 4 comments
Anamika:............ 7 comments
Chandra:............ 3 comments
PH:................. 2 comments
Commonsense:........20 comments

Now the most value for the comment (links, or something of slight intellectual value).

Ruvy in Jerusalem: 14 links or references
Temporal: 4 links, references or something amusing
Anamika: 4˝ links, references or something amusing
Morris: 4 comments with questions
Commonsense: 3 comments with link or reference
Chandra: 0
PH: 0

BD: I leave to you to judge value for the money. To me, it is commonsense that those with the fewest links, references or intelligent comments/divided by the number of comments, have the most verbal diarrhea.

This is how I score all this:

Ruvy in Jerusalem: 14/13 least verbal diarrhea
Morris: 4/4
Anamika: 4˝/7
Temporal: 4/8
Commonsense: 3/20
Chandra: 0/3
PH: 0/2

Chandra and PH were acting as normal commenters. That leaves "Commonsense" with the championship in verbal diarrhea.

This has been the most enjoyable bit of analyzing numbers I've done in long time! :o))

#107
temporal
URL
April 7, 2008
04:39 PM

re # 106

THIS

;)

#108
temporal
URL
April 7, 2008
04:41 PM

cs:

or is it THIS?

#109
tbs
April 7, 2008
04:42 PM

Good God, this has degenerated into mud-slinging, name-calling and total and complete lack of any constructive criticism. It is very reminiscent of the deaf talking to the deaf, because nobody actually responds to the points made but just tries to gather points for himself and Ruvy, with all due respect, don't moan about being insulted or attacked when you yourself dish out like that. Can someone please tell me what's the use / benefit of all this?

#110
Anamika
April 7, 2008
06:25 PM

TBS: Trying to engage a fanatic like Ruvy is pretty pathetic. But to leave an open field to fanatics is outright dangerous (Mullah Omar, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Meir Kahane, etc).

I prefer not to engage in name-calling but I will call a spade a spade - and the Israeli fanatic threatening death and destruction is no different from one of Goebbels' little minions who spread calumny and terror as far as they can.

Given that Ruvy has shown ZERO interest and tolerance for desi ideas/culture/thoughts, it seems to me that in keeping with the tradition of totalitarian regimes (China in recent days, eg) employing plants of net fora in a strategic manner, his role on DC job is to spread lies, fear and hatred re: Palestine (and Muslims). And I for one am not putting up with such hate propaganda by shutting up.

#111
commonsense
April 7, 2008
08:53 PM

Temporal, 107 & 108: it's a non-judicious mix of both!

TBS: point taken; however, please read our friend Ruvy's post and try to figure out exactly what he has contributed to this discussion. Once he starts claiming that God himself personally gave him and his tribe a piece of land that he needs to protect on pain of murder and bloodletting, where does one go from there? Once he begins to "prove" his position by extensive quotes from holy texts that he happens to believe in, where exactly does one go from there? Once he hypocritically, begins to claim that only God not humans can judge others, but then begins to use nasty descriptors and adjectives, where does one go from there? (Note I believe that humans can and should judge, so I'm not trying to eat and have my roti too). Our friend Ruvy is an old hand at this, so he and others know what's going on here...

#112
commonsense
April 7, 2008
08:59 PM

Ruvy:

"That leaves "Commonsense" with the championship in verbal diarrhea."

Thanks! I feel redeemed...


"This has been the most enjoyable bit of analyzing numbers I've done in long time! :o))"

Good to know that you enjoy something, other than conveying the views of Kahane on this site...

#113
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 8, 2008
12:30 AM

Aaman,

Since comment #48, the range of comments has at this article has degenerated to Temporal, Anamika and Commonsense attacking me for being a Nazi Jew or trying hard to get me to leave with personal attacks.

At comment #109, an anonymous commenter using the screen name tbs commented, "Good God, this has degenerated into mud-slinging, name-calling and total and complete lack of any constructive criticism. It is very reminiscent of the deaf talking to the deaf,..." Admittedly the commenter doesn't like my views. I'm not being defended in that comment. He's disgusted by what he sees. But unlike Temporal, Anamika or Commonsense, I've provided links to back up my point of view. I've provided news.

There has been no conversation or exchange of views whatever. Invited to comment at my article at BC, these fools have declined. They must all realize that there, their display of personal attacks, lies and calumny would be slapped down, disemboweled and eventually banned.

Stomping on her own turf and waving a saffron flag proudly, Anamika sums it up best for the lot of them.

"TBS: Trying to engage a fanatic like Ruvy is pretty pathetic. But to leave an open field to fanatics is outright dangerous (Mullah Omar, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Meir Kahane, etc).

I prefer not to engage in name-calling but I will call a spade a spade - and the Israeli fanatic threatening death and destruction is no different from one of Goebbels' little minions who spread calumny and terror as far as they can......And I for one am not putting up with such hate propaganda by shutting up."

I'm the only writer from Israel here, and I provide an accurate mirror of the views of more and more of my compatriots daily as events degenerate. Commonsense writes from the United States, Temporal from Canada and Anamika from the UK. Not a one of them can give you the insights to this country that I can or the events in this part of West Asia that I can.

I'll not be driven away by the Jew-hatred I see (I made that mistake once), and I have enough editorial sense to structure my comments in such a way as to keep to the thread (loosely) and hone my verbal sword more nastily and more sharply with each comment, and yet avoid descending into personal attacks like Just One Moron did at Blog Critics, or Anamika, Temporal or Commonsense at this site. If every day, I have to provide news of my part of the world to your site in this sick atmosphere, then this is what I will do - day in, day out, six days weekly.

Have a think, Aaman. This is your site. Is this what you want?

Regards to Deepti.

#114
temporal
URL
April 8, 2008
12:37 AM

"I am a black South African, and if I were to change the names, a description of what is happening in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank could describe events in South Africa."

~Archbishop Desmond Tutu

#115
temporal
URL
April 8, 2008
12:42 AM
#116
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 8, 2008
01:53 AM

For the last two days there has been a nationwide drill going on here, one designed to test Israel's ability to cope in a coordinated missile attack of the kind Israeli intelligence expects in the near future. Today, this drill is supposed to culminate in the blowing of air-raid sirens throughout the country at 10:00 (we'll see if "the country" includes Ma'ale Levona, here up in the mountains of Samaria north of Ramallah).

Sunday, I was discussing this exercise with the commander of the police volunteer unit I belong to where I spend most of Sundays and Thursdays. He said that he had asked others in the Jerusalem District of the Israel Police (Mishterét Yisraél is a centralized organization rather than the localized type organization that one sees in Britain, Canada or the United States where each jurisdiction provides its own police) if they had any plans for our volunteer unit in the case of an emergency. According to him, they just laughed. They said the exercise was, for the police at any rate, theoretical.

Strategic Forecasting Inc., known to most as Stratfor.com has a different take on the whole thing, given the steady news of Syrian military movements near the northern border, Syrian partial mobilization, and more and more equipment being reportedly shipped to HizbAllah.

The following is from an e-mail I received.
Stratfor's site would not allow access to the article itself as Strategic Forecasting, Inc. is a for-pay service available to subscribers only, with a limited number of articles available for the general public as a teaser. This is one of those teaser articles.

Therefore, it is reproduced in toto here:
--------------------------------------------------
STRATFOR.COM

Geopolitical Diary: An Israeli "Turning Point"


April 7, 2008

Israel launched a major, nationwide military exercise on Sunday.

Scheduled to last five days, it is designed to simulate air and missile attacks against Israel, including "unconventional" weapons - which we would assume refers to chemical, biological and nuclear weapons. The exercise will test Israel's ability to protect its population and maintain continuity of government and military
decision-making in the event of such an attack.

The Israelis have emphasized that the simulation is not an attempt to raise tensions in the region, nor a cover for an attack on either Lebanon or Syria. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said on Sunday, "The goal of the exercise is to check the authorities' ability to carry out their duty in times of emergency and for preparing the home
front for various scenarios. There is nothing else hidden behind it."

The code name of the exercise is "Turning Point 2," a choice that bears some scrutiny because code names have become public relations tools. From Operation Peace for Galilee (Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1982) to Urgent Fury (the U.S. invasion of Grenada in 1983) to Iraqi Freedom, the code names selected by Western countries have less
to do with the desire for security than the desire for a clear message. (Turning Point 1 was a much smaller exercise that took place last year. However, given rumors flying around the region right now, anything called 'Turning Point' will raise eyebrows, even if it was used before.)

Thought was given by the Israelis to the name "Turning Point." That choice was intended to deliver a message, and deliver it to two audiences. One audience is the Israeli public. The other is Israel's adversaries, ranging from Hamas and Hezbollah to Syria and Iran. That a message is being delivered along with the exercise is clear. The meaning of the message, however, is more opaque.

"Turning point," as Winston Churchill used it in World War II, is that moment in which the trend of the war shifts away from one side and toward another. It is a decisive moment, a point of
rectification. From the Israeli standpoint, there would appear to be three conflicts that need to be rectified. The first is the Israeli confrontation with Hamas in Gaza, where an extended stalemate appears to be in place. The second is Israel's conflict with Hezbollah: The Israeli-Hezbollah war of 2006 defined a balance between Israeli and
Hezbollah forces that is unsatisfactory to Israel. Many Israelis would argue the need for a turning point there - a reinitiation of conflict to change the outcome of 2006 - and Hezbollah has been
claiming that this is Israel's intent. The third of Israel's conflicts has been in its relations with Iran. Israel has asserted that Iran is working on a nuclear weapon and delivery system that will threaten Israel. An elimination f that threat through offensive, defensive or combined efforts would certainly be a turning point.

The Israelis may have in mind one or more of these actions taking
place simultaneously. A combined action in Gaza and the Bekaa Valley [beka'á means valley in both Hebrew and ArabicRiJ] would represent an attempt to achieve a turning point in the Israeli strategic position. Either or both of those offensives might trigger missile attacks using chemical weapons. Therefore any operation that would be intended as a turning point in the regional conflict might well contain a defensive scenario against a large-scale chemical attack on Israel from weapons deployed in Lebanon or possibly Syria.

The Israelis could also be conducting a necessary exercise for implementing defensive war-fighting scenarios under unknown circumstances. They might have chosen the code name simply to jangle nerves in the region. However, over the past weeks we have seen everything from U.S. Sixth Fleet naval vessels moving close to the Lebanese coast, to very convincing reports of Syrian troop movements
along the Lebanese border. Jangling the nerves of the region seems superfluous.

The name might simply mean that from this moment forward, Israel is ready for unconventional air and missile attack. Or it could be intended as a signal that Israel is interested in a broader turning point. Either way, code names are not casually chosen and the code name for the largest anti-WMD defensive exercise that Israel has ever
undertaken was not pulled out of a jar.

--------------------------------------------------

From my own standpoint, the Olmert "regime" would rather not respond at all to Arab attacks on Israel or Israelis. This has been the pattern in S'derot, and an increasing number of Israeli cities and towns (like Haifa, Jerusalem and Ramle) where Arab gangs attack Jews. The situation here is being allowed to slowly degenerate one analogous to that of 1936, where the Arabs revolted and attacked Jews here and the British stood and did nothing until their own assets (like the oil line from Mosul to Haifa) were endangered. The stance of the Zionist "power-holders" (I'll not deign to call them leaders - a title they ill deserve) is accurately reflected by how the government tries to cripple Mishmeret Yesh"a (see comment #94). But reality intrudes too closely on the Olmert "regime" and even they have to concede a bit - hence using S'derot as a propaganda tool while doing nothing to end its bombardment (see comment #100 [or #99 if Temporal's accidental double posting is eliminated]).

This exercise is a similar act. It is just too obvious to even the idiots and traitors on Government Hill that a coordinated missile attack from Syria, Iran and Gaza would destroy their own authority. Hence the exercise. Kids in school will dive under desks, civilians will rush to air-raid shelters and all will think that everything is nearly ready. That is evidently the thinking on Government Hill. Last week, in an "emergency" meeting, the power-holders, a.k.a. the cabinet, decided to once again distribute gas masks to the populace. The fact that monies for such a distribution will not be available until fiscal 2010 was ignored in every single press report on the "emergency" meeting.

So much for protecting the populace. Not long ago, there was a collection of gas masks held here by the IDF. Many residents turned theirs in, getting a little white sheet of paper in return. Evidently, this white sheet of paper is to protect us in the event of an Arab missile attack.

Yeah. Sure. And Santa is coming at Christmas; the Tooth Fairy will give little kids ten shekels for every tooth they lose. And look! Quick before he disappears! There goes the Easter Bunny hopping down the strand to meet up with a mate to make more little bunnies for next Easter!

#117
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 8, 2008
01:54 AM

Ending italics here. Sorry 'bout that!

#119
Anamika
April 8, 2008
05:03 AM

Didn't the Nazis whip up war hysteria by planning nation-wide war exercises too? Hmmm....methinks me sees a link.

Ruvy - THERE IS NO Jew-hatred on this thread. Stop being hysterical and naming the opposition of Israel as Jew-hatred!

That may work in America or Western Europe but it sure as hell wont work with desis - simply because we dont have ANY past guilt regarding Jews or indeed any history of anti-Semitism.

But to understand that, you may actually have to start learning a bit about India and the rest of the world...and you have proven repeatedly EXACTLY how much interest you have in India. You use DC for your fundamentalist propaganda and then scream "Jew-hatred" when it is countered.

#120
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 8, 2008
08:15 AM

Anamika,

I realize that you Indians have no guilt about Jews concerning Jew-hatred as practiced in India, because until recently, this was unknown in your native land.

One wastes one's time appealing to something that does not exist.

I don't happen to give a tinker's dam what you think, either, Anamika. Israel is where Jews and Judaism is going, so if you abominate Israel, you abominate Jews. I'm not trying to persuade you of that. I'm telling you. And that is how I view you - as a Jew-hater - for that simple reason. And I'm not talking about all the others on this list, I'm talking about YOU specifically.

Now to move on to things of interest to others on this list that specifically concern South Asians. There are certain things that one refrains from commenting on, even if they are disgusting.

When smallsquirrel left India's shores for America, she wrote an article, A Parting Wish for India. It generated fewer comments than this article has, but she was attacked for telling you a home truth she had at least a year and a half to witness and see.

Mind you, she saw with her own eyes what she wrote about. But still, she was attacked by all variety of people who would not grant the validity of her clear view because she was not native born, a Desi.

So, who am I, who has never visited your native country, to comment on it beyond a few points that seem evident here and there? You mistake politeness and silence for disinterest and ignorance. Not wise, young lady, not wise at all. And yes, I'm old enough to call you a young lady.

There is one thing I will comment on, given that you have opened the door with your shrill complaints.

Before you DARE criticize Israelis for "genocide" look in the mirror. Look at the population transfer that took place upon the birth of India and Pakistan; upon the thousands (or was it hundreds of thousands?) of deaths; upon the millions of families torn apart by that event, upon all who have died in wars between Pakistan and India since. Look at the thousands who die yearly in communal riots within India and Pakistan. I don't care what the reasons are or aren't or what excuses are given. There is never a reason to riot and murder your neighbors. But you Desis indulge yourselves liberally in bloodshed in your native lands. The stink of the blood you shed in your native lands stinks worse than the stink of all the garbage or pollution you could possibly cause.

For you, or any Desi to dare point the finger of genocide at me or any other Jew is the height of hypocrisy. When I say height of hypocrisy, I do not mean that you are worse hypocrites than Brits who curse us, or Finns or Danes or Poles or Russians. They have Jewish blood on their hands - their hypocrisy is far worse. But you still have blood on your hands and you need to look in the mirror before you criticize me or the likes of me. for murder.

Frankly, once you clean up your own act, then you can talk - not before.

#121
Anamika
April 8, 2008
09:20 AM

Ruvy - FIRST of all, MORE Jews live OUTSIDE Israel than in Israel. And a LOT of them DON'T agree with Israel's policies of apartheid and genocide. So no Jews DONT equal Israel and neither is Israel synonymous with Jews any more than Saudi Arabia is with Islam.

You wrote off CS's reference to Arendt by calling her an apologist. That was exactly like as Osama bin Laden calling moderate Muslims "heretics." Its the mark of a religious fanatic!

Last year, a very prominent group of British Jews officially and publicly declared their abhorrence for Israel's actions. Your response would be to declare them "apologists" and "self-haters." Just like the Wahhabis consider the worshippers at Garib-Nawas "heretics."

The brilliant Israeli writer Shimon Tzabar FOUGHT for the formation of Israel and was declared a terrorist by the British. Yet he spent the last forty years of his life living in exile and exposing the horrors of Israeli actions against the Palestinians. According to your fanatic beliefs, he too is a "self-hating apologist." Just like Naguib Mahfouz is not "Muslim" enough for Osama bin Ladin.

The Israeli jazz-musician and writer Gilad Atzmon is another person who fights Israel's horrific policies against the Palestinians. For you, he is not "jewish" enough. Just like the Jaish think Shahrukh Khan is a blasphemer and infidel.

So all you do with each of your posts is to show the extent of your fanaticism.

By your ignorance of Indo-Pak Partition and the naqba or indeed ethnic cleansing, you simply expose your own ignorance - again a trademark of a fanatic. Or just someone who is ignorant but smug in his own lack of understanding - ie fanatic.

Re: smallsquirrel's article: I don't agree with a great deal of what she writes, not because of some ideological standpoint but because "personal" experience is not a very logical argument for any generalized phenomenon. HOWEVER, she UNLIKE you speaks from a position of respect for other cultures, which means I can disagree with her but there is actually an exchange of information and opinions. Funny how you did not notice the number of Indians who AGREED with the piece - a basic principle of free people but a point that a fanatic genocidal nut would not appreciate that.

Oh and why dont you ask SS what she thinks of your idea of Jews=Israel? From prior discussions, your views dont exactly match. So does THAT make her a "self-hating apologist" in your view?

On the other hand, YOU have consistently denigrated Hindu beliefs on this forum (and yes, defending "your" beliefs by claiming "chosen people" status DENIES the equality of MY beliefs. That equals intolerance and bigotry.

Threatening nuclear wars and genocide - however covertly - equals hate speech. Proceeding to back that hate speech with weapons and the will/ability to use it makes you a violent religious fanatic. And that makes you EXACTLY like Mullah Omar and Osama bin Ladin. And eliminating populations for ideological purposes is genocide (what YOUR lot are doing in Palestine; and the Chinese in Tibet). And that makes you EXACTLY like Hitler.

An old geezer like you ought to have a grip on reality, but your fanaticism won't let you see that! All you can do is bleat "jew-hatred" when your fanatic hatred for anyone who differs in opinion from you is exposed - I guess the anti-Semite charge got a bit old and weak?

#122
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 8, 2008
09:34 AM

Like I said, Anamika, the stink of the blood Desis shed of each others is far worse than anything that has happened here. Clean up your own act, and then you can talk. You have no moral grounding to say anything to criticize my people at all.

#123
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 8, 2008
09:48 AM

And to be thoroughly clear with you, when I say my people, I include smallsquirrel, Gil'ad Atzmon, Hanna Arendt, Ilan Pappe, and Uri Avneri.

[EDITED, EXCESSIVE GENERALIZATION] WE have real regrets when innocents die at our hands, and WE do respect other faiths and their practices, even if we do not agree with them.

If that sounds like I think I'm better than you, well, I guess it does.

Too bad. Deal with it.

#124
Anamika
April 8, 2008
10:29 AM

A religious fanatic is not fit for rational company but if it helps your delusion of being superior, go ahead. Seems that people like Arendt, Tzabar et al don't exactly agree with your definition of Israel = Jews. OR agree with your idea of how the divine real estate agent gave you a bit of land for which you can kill, torture and maim.

On the other hand, you are in good company at least with your expressions of regrets at killing [EDITED, NO CORRELATION]

As for your pathetic snide remarks, go ahead - each time you reveal the extent of your ignorance and hubris. At the same time, I don't see YOUR people living peacefully with 1.5 billion others of different races, religions, languages, customs, ideologies.

But stay with the idiotic remarks. To ACTUALLY state something with ANY degree of rationality or knowledge about South Asia would require you to actually LEARN something about South Asia instead of using this forum to spread your propaganda. And trying to LEARN something about South Asia may actually mean shedding the hubris and engaging your brain. But that would stop you from being a fanatic, won't it?

Keep going - [EDITED, PERSONAL]

#125
Morris
April 8, 2008
11:11 AM

Once again this is not going any where. None of us are perfect. We all have shortcomings. We got try to minimize them.

Universal principle for livning in peace and harmony

Thou shalt not do or wish to do to others that you do not wish others to do to you

unless it is being done in accordance with the law of the land. And those laws also should be generally in conformity with this priciple. Hey, that is just plain common sense. Is in'nt it? Now there is nothing wrong in believing in God. But when our God tells us or approves of us doing something contrary to this principle, we are in trouble. We have to disobey our God or live in conflict with others. We can look for another God. And that is what Ruvy's God is doing. I wonder how he would feel, if Palestinians' God commanded that not a square inch of the region should be occupied by non believers? He did not answer a similar question.

Anyway, that brings us back to our subject. Islamophobia. Surely there is some Islamophobia around the world. But look at the religion. God of Quran says a lot of things that violates this principle. It is difficult to understand how such actions are justified now. And there is not much denounciation of what has been written. Around the world most of the muslim countries do not permit their minorities the kind of freedom they demand and enjoy in rest of democratic world. As a result most Islamic countries have insignificant minorities. Moreover, most of these countries are Islamic republics. I wonder how we would feel if some EU countries decided to become Christian republic? So it seems like they continue to practice what has been written. While majority are peace loving citizens, we have no way to determine who among us could be a strong believer of what God commanded. Look at Ruvy. I thought he is inteligent and sensible person. And he is but he is more than that. He feels strongly about this irrational idea of land. So are our fears justified about Islam? Perhaps.

#126
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 8, 2008
11:47 AM

Morris,

You actually made me smile with your comment. Thanks for stopping by and giving this all another chance. Right now, I'm working on an article, and do not want to lose my trains of thought, but I'll be happy to return and try to explain a few things to you that may be of some help. There is a major cultural gulf I need to try to cross in what I need to say, and that requires some thought; I can't just knock this off in a few seconds....

#127
temporal
URL
April 8, 2008
12:00 PM

THIS LEADS us, of course, to the Palestinian issue.

In the competition for the sympathy of the world media, the Palestinians are unlucky. According to all the objective standards, they have a right to full independence, exactly like the Tibetans. They inhabit a defined territory, they are a specific nation, a clear border exists between them and Israel. One must really have a crooked mind to deny these facts.

But the Palestinians are suffering from several cruel strokes of fate: The people that oppress them claim for themselves the crown of ultimate victimhood. The whole world sympathizes with the Israelis because the Jews were the victims of the most horrific crime of the Western world. That creates a strange situation: the oppressor is more popular than the victim. Anyone who supports the Palestinians is automatically suspected of anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial.

Also, the great majority of the Palestinians are Muslims (nobody pays attention to the Palestinian Christians). Since Islam arouses fear and abhorrence in the West, the Palestinian struggle has automatically become a part of that shapeless, sinister threat, "international terrorism". And since the murders of Yasser Arafat and Sheik Ahmed Yassin, the Palestinians have no particularly impressive leader - neither in Fatah nor in Hamas.

The world media are shedding tears for the Tibetan people, whose land is taken from them by Chinese settlers. Who cares about the Palestinians, whose land is taken from them by our settlers?

In the world-wide tumult about Tibet, the Israeli spokespersons compare themselves - strange as it sounds - to the poor Tibetans, not to the evil Chinese. Many think this quite logical.

If Kant were dug up tomorrow and asked about the Palestinians, he would probably answer: "Give them what you think should be given to everybody, and don't wake me up again to ask silly questions." Uri Avnery

#128
commonsense
April 8, 2008
12:06 PM

i wish i were at home and could participate more frequently...itinerant at the moment, with little access to the net...

our friend (#116) does surpass me on the verbal diarrhoea (sp?) index though...my only achievment is under threat by someone had a divine promise about real, physical land, not cyberspace...

#129
commonsense
April 8, 2008
12:11 PM

Morriss,

Islamophobia is real and insidious too. at the same time, it also exploited by the mullahs and their hangers-on who expand their thekedaari of conservative aspects of islam and scuttle reform by pointing to islamophobia which is real. it's a classic lose-lose situation..

#130
Chandra
April 8, 2008
12:11 PM

Ruvy: I don't happen to give a tinker's dam what you think, either, Anamika. Israel is where Jews and Judaism is going, so if you abominate Israel, you abominate Jews. I'm not trying to persuade you of that. I'm telling you. And that is how I view you - as a Jew-hater - for that simple reason. And I'm not talking about all the others on this list, I'm talking about YOU specifically.

Chandra: Please include me also in this list. If pointing out to your illegal occupation and heartless behaviour is being anti-semitic or whatever, please go ahead and call 80% of the world's population anti-semitic. However, i am very sure somehow you and your nation will pay a very heavy price for your cruel and heartless behaviour. People always do......

#131
temporal
URL
April 8, 2008
12:13 PM

Morris:

what law?

when cornered this fanatic quotes god

how can you argue with him - by quoting your god?

***

here he is on record threatening to kill, to remove palestinians by genocide...

logic is wasted on those who hear voices in thin air...all sane voices can do is to oppose fanatics and imbalanced cuckoos like osama bin mullah omar bin hitler bin kahane with sane and non violent rebuttals on every fora

#132
commonsense
April 8, 2008
12:26 PM

Temp,

exactly my sentiments...so uncharacteristically, I will not paraphrase them...still, me being me, to restate it: people who quote god (and not just any old god, but their own god) to clinch any argument do not deserve even a modicum of rational argument...

#133
commonsense
April 8, 2008
12:34 PM

as an afterthought, while our friend ruvvy tries to convert this discussion of islamophobia into a discussion about anti-semitism, i'd like to remind everyone that the group/party he represents, identifies with and frequently quotes ie. Kahane's Kach party and its various iterations and siblings, has been banned as a terrorist organization in all countries including of course Israel and the United States for inciting racism and racist violence of the most extreme kind.

#134
Gill
April 8, 2008
12:46 PM

>>>>the Palestinians are unlucky. According to all the objective standards, they have a right to full independence, exactly like the Tibetans.<<<<

In that region in the same context don't you think that Kurds are the most unluckiest ones!!!!!

Is it logic or it is Palestinian "Gun and terrorism" that gets them more attention and sympathy than the Kurds or non-sympathy towards Kurds is legitimated by the fact that they are victimized and their nation is grabbed by their fellow non-ethnic Kurdish Muslim states.

>>>In the world-wide tumult about Tibet, the Israeli spokespersons compare themselves - strange as it sounds - to the poor Tibetans, not to the evil Chinese. Many think this quite logical.<<<<<

There is nothing wrong with the comparison. They are both two very distinct societies fighting for their respective traditional, religious, political and social "survival". Only difference is the tools chosen by both societies to fight "extinction". Violence and Non-Violence.


#135
temporal
URL
April 8, 2008
12:53 PM

the world jewry's ire should be directed at the moustachioed subaltern

he "expelled" them, killed them, ghettoized them

instead of dealing with europe they occupied and keep occupying more and more of palestine

killing,maiming, stifling, suffocating, ghettoising bantustizing another semite group

all in the name of "their" god


#136
Gill
April 8, 2008
12:53 PM

>>>logic is wasted on those who hear voices in thin air.<<<<<

So you are implying that semitic prophets were insane and all their works that they wrote down for humanity listening to these vioces are illogical!!!!!

#137
temporal
URL
April 8, 2008
12:56 PM

if you care to read;)

#138
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 8, 2008
02:10 PM

if you care to read;)

Gill,

Are you getting the picture? According to Temporal, the Hebrew prophets were insane - so he implies; and in the Hindu way of thought, G-d giving out land as holy is just crazy. Don't believe me. Ask Anamika!

#139
temporal
URL
April 8, 2008
02:28 PM

bottom line

you cannot occupy a land, kill and displace families inhabiting it, based on what you think your god told you to do

;)

#140
Anamika
April 8, 2008
02:37 PM

Temp bhai - I guess listing direct incidents of how current Zionist-fundamentalist rhetoric is the SAME as Nazis is not acceptable? :-) fair dinkum - I accept that, but LOTS of Nazis DID express "regret" for the deaths at the Nuremberg trials. ;-)

Ruvy - Every nutter wandering around the desert hearing voices can be proclaimed a prophet!

And yes, ALL reasonable thinking people would not accept on god giving out packets of real estate to justify genocide.

And if you believe that god gave you Israel, why not accept that the Christian god sent down his only son to save YOUR soul? After all, the new testament gives great detail of THAT particular prophet who came to save - before all else - the Jews! And why not accept that Muhammad is the most recent prophet and HIS is the final word of god? Why is YOUR version of god any better or more believable than the others?

As re the Hindu way: if you believe in god as personal and present (as in within the theist perspective) there are far greater things for god to worry about that carving up real estate: these include ALL humanity and not just ONE set of chosen people.

If you believe in the nirgun idea of divinity (ie within a non-physical deity) there is no need for god to be parcelling out bits of land because the cosmos is far greater than just the earth and time spans much longers spaces than mere human experience (as in the time of humanity on earth). Again, why would the divine worry about real estate?

Finally, if you believe in the idea of shunya, all real estate - divine or otherwise allotted - is maya and means nothing anyway.

Point being god has little to do with human squabbles but has been dragged into it willy-nilly by petty minded fanatics of all creeds.


In

#141
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 8, 2008
03:29 PM

This article is n example of what I mean by Desis indulging in bloodshed. It is just one of the many communal battles taking place across the Indian sub-continent - and one of the reasons that nobody from the Indian sub-continent should point the finger of genocide at my people. I could probably point to a whole lot more if I out my efforts into it, but frankly, other things have to come first.

#142
temporal
URL
April 8, 2008
03:37 PM

what? god is not talking now?

nice attempt to deflect

;)

#143
Anamika
April 8, 2008
07:06 PM

Well, you see South Asia was not given to its people by any god, so obviously human sentiments regarding who lives where, and controls what come into play. One reason why we dont blame all our problems on gods.

Btw, I agree with temp bhai. Given this rather sudden descent to human arguments, are you having with your personal hotline to god? Or is it that real estate agent in the sky looks like he would get better commission (ie souls) from the newest semitic religion?

#144
Man Singh
URL
April 8, 2008
07:52 PM

Friends,

a great deviation has occured from the real topic of Islamophobia? is it real or not?

Is it true that prophet of Islam used sword to propagate his religion after failing to get followers by `peaceful preaching for around 10 years in Mecca'?

And a true muslim has to follw his/her prophet in ditto. Therefore they will try to capture the towns and countries using peaceful means in the beginning and if failed will resort to violence exactly as their prophet did?

Is this fear if unreal or very much real loking at the behaviour of a groups among muslims from Morocco to Phillipine who are killing non muslims if avaialble and addicted to killing, they are killing their own people once non muslims are almost finished.

Yes Majority of Muslims are peaceful and still follow `first 10 years teachings of their prophet'. Issue is if fear of turning them to violent teachings of `Medina' from `peaceful teachings' of mecca. Is the fear real or hypothetical?

Look at Kashmir. Hindus became minority due to conversions and killings and stretegic infilteration from neighbouring couintries. Now Muslims are demanding kashmir and have kicked Hindus out of it. Though Hindus have emotional , cultural and religious attachment to Kashmir.

Look at Kosos. Serbians converted , killed and infilteration of muslims made them a minority in their own country and they have been kicked out and koso belongs to...

Look at Southern Thailand. Killing conversion and infiltration from malaysia is going on and in next 50 years Budhsist will be kicked out there.

Look at Southern Phillippines Mindanao province. Phillippinos killed converted and strategic infiltration from neighboring Indonesia and Malaysia made them a minority in their own country and Phillipinoes are being kicked out of their and u'll see a separate country there ..

Look at `only Secular Country in middle east' where secularism democracy and indepenedt justice system is prevailing how Jews were kicked out of their own country like Hindus of Kashmir and when after WW2 their land was returned to them , whole muslim world is out to take back the land back from jews which was `looted' from jews once upon a time. What a chori aur seena jori case. same thing is happening in india in ramjanambhumi case where Muslims are demanding their right to get the possession of land looted by `muslim Babar'.
And many time our own people support such nonsnese demand to prove themselves `secular and progressive'.

This separatist mentality on the part of muslims around the globe is very much real. engagement of a fraction of muslims in violence to achive their separatist goals are very real.

And as a small gang of dacoits can terrorise the whole village, a small fraction of 1.4 Billion muslims can terrorise whole Humanity.

Therefore Islamophobia is very real. Humanity is bound to suffer at its hand.

There are three ways to divert the devasatation.

1. Good Muslims should come forward themselves and eliminate these violent teachings of medina and make sure Umma follows `teachings of Mecca' that support peaceful coexistance and mutual respect to all communities and all ways of worship Non Muslims should support these good muslims to full. Chances of this happening are pretty remote though.

2. Non Muslims should prepare to defend themselves and good muslims should support non muslims to eliminate these follwoers of violent teachings of Medina.

3. Non muslims should purelu focus on their safety no matter good muslims help or not.

In my opinion second option is the best. But 3rd has to be most likely possiblity.

As a conclusion, Islamophobia is very much real danger to humanity. Humanity has to take necessary action to defend its `faith, property and values' from violent teachings of Medina when Mo was strong.

of course Mo preached and behaved like Budha when he was weak in his first 10 years in Mecca.

It is a big chalenge to muslims also if they should choose peaceful and compassionate Mo of Mecca' or `violent Mo of Medina'.

Truth is a bit bitter my freidns especially in this world of political correctness and diplomacy. But truth is here and Humanity has to take a decision as its a moment of truth.

#145
temporal
URL
April 8, 2008
08:02 PM

mansingh:

you are so right and so perceptive and so revealing that it looks like you receive divine revealation too

am just this close (holding index and middle finger together) to call you a prophet

but before i do make that proclamation have a request of you

after you accept prophethood can you rescind all earlier orders given to david re: shady real estate deals?

my bhena anamika can fill you in on the details

hail!

#146
smallsquirrel
April 8, 2008
08:09 PM

how did I get dragged into this?

GAH!

I will state again for the record, as I have before, the following:

1. I am a Jew.
2. I am probably considered non-religious, but I consider myself a Jew none-the-less. Even though I have never been to Israel and would NEVER move there. Ever. Never.
3. I also consider myself a Hindu at this point.
4. While I do not contest the right of Israel to exist, I do not support settlement in the West Bank or any number of other contested areas.
5. I do not condone the ill-treatment (read murder) of Palestinians which has in turn led to the fucked up situation going on over there. Gross over-generalization? Why yes, it is. Why? I am trying to put a 9 month old to bed and type at the same time.
6. I do think many times desis did not listen to what I had to say simply because I am white and not because they disagreed with me fundamentally.
7. I think #6 above is also a trait found in many other cultures (we all hate to be criticized, even moreso by an "outsider" and it is all the more upsetting if there is any truth to the matter at all)
8. More often than not I disagree with Ruvy's statements wholeheartedly.
9. Ruvy lives something that I do not (and you also do not) and I have learned the hard way that it is very easy to think you understand something when you have not lived it.
10. While I do tend to base some of my arguments on personal experience, usually the experience is used to back up a phenomenon that has been noted by more than just myself. I might not quote the world, but that doesn't mean my assertions are not based in a larger truth than simply my own experience.
11. I am friggin tired.
12. this thread makes me sad. is there a point?

#147
Anamika
April 8, 2008
08:15 PM

Thank you Man Singh for illustrating the meaning of Islamophobia, especially your history of Israel.

A few clarifications:
First of all, Israel is a JEWISH country - founded like Pakistan or Saudi Arabia on the basis of religion. It is NOT a secular one.

Second: the Jews were not "kicked out of their country like the Hindus of Kashmir" by the Muslims. READ YOUR HISTORY!

Three: most religious Jews who actually followed Judaic literature did not agree with the idea of Israel being formed as a human endeavoour. It was only (ironically) the secular, left-leaning, (secular) Jews who formed the first batch of Zionist ideologues.

Four: The Jews did not get their land "back" because after 2000 years after the final destruction of Jewish political power in Palestine, they spread to various parts of the world. It was "handed back" to white Europeans who formed part of British and French political elite (Weitzman anyone?) partly to assuage European guilt over WW2 and partly to ensure that there was a western settler colony in the middle east. Israel as it was formed was NOT handing it back to the "people" - if that were the truth, the Arab,Indian and African Jews would not be treated like second class citizens by white European (Ashkenazi) Jews.

Five: Why was the price of the holocaust paid by the Palestinians who had no role in the war?

You said "chori aur seena jori" - let me ask you: you are an Indian right? Lets say you live in the Punjab. You farm the land your great grandfather managed to buy from the landlord, paid huge lagaan on to the British. It is a difficult life but you love that land.

Now what happens if someone comes to your house and says "this is my house because it belonged to me 2000 years ago." You show them the land deeds and they say "these are not legal" because the British left India in 1947 and so they have no right to give you this deed. Then, they throw you out of your house. When you protest, they call you a terrorist, throw you into prison, torture you and finally kill you and your family. Will you think that is fair? Or is that "getting" their land back.

Yes, we are talking of Islamophobia - and NO the discussion is not really off topic (as Morris suggests) because so much of the view of Islam is framed from and tinted with the lens that Zionists (aided by western Holocaust guilt) has formed that we cannot talk of hatred of Islam unless we first dismantle the way this hatred is perpetuated by mainstream western press. And it is aided by ideologue propagandists on fora like DC to brainwash peoples (ie desis in this case) by playing on local fears and lack of information.

#148
temporal
URL
April 8, 2008
08:16 PM

ss:

rest easy

you are one of "us" not one of "that" feller who dragged your name here

:)

#149
Anamika
April 8, 2008
08:24 PM

SS: Sorry but the only reason you were dragged in was because "that" feller decided to use you as an example/red flat/call it what you will.

Given your posts here, I challenged his assumption that Jew = Israeli. As you contribute what seems to be the sole voice of moderation from the "Jewish" community, it seemed logical to use your views rather than that of Arendt, Tzabar, et al. (Isn't it sad that even writing the above sentence seems odd when there are constant demands for the "Muslim" community that is many times larger to "prove" its moderate credentials?)

I realise this is saddening for you because of personal reasons. But it makes me really angry that people like Ruvy taint the legacy of the many Jewish people who have stood for (and continue to stand for) rational, humanist values. And it makes me especially sick to see the values espoused by a brave and righteous human like Shimon Tzabar hijacked and mauled by fanatics.



#150
commonsense
April 8, 2008
08:29 PM

anamika, agree this discussion is not off topic as morris and i suggested earlier. islamophobia cannot be meaningfully de-linked from these issues...

#151
smallsquirrel
April 8, 2008
08:33 PM

temp, anamika... yeah, I get it. I just... it makes me sad. and I am glad you see why.

I think, though, that ruvy picked the wrong article of mine to demonstrate his point. on the article he references, most desi women agreed with me. some, including you anamika, did not agree.. and that is fine because who can argue with your personal experience? it's yours, period.

I think ruvy should have chosen one of the articles where I tried to talk about things I had dealt with in India that were met with a good number of replies that amounted to "shut up white girl, no one asked you anyway."

anyway, it happens. I do not think all desis think that way, and I do think that all cultures have people that resort to that line of rhetoric when things in their native land are questioned.

and in the end it is WAAAAAAAAAAY off topic.

#152
Anamika
April 8, 2008
08:45 PM

Point taken ss...btw, just as an aside, I find it funny/sad that ruvy and you have both assumed that I have no personal experience of Israel (see your comment 146).

Just because I dont think debates should be based around a bit more than personal experiences that may (for example) "prove" that Israelis treat Indians like crap (mostly because they cant differentiate north Indians and Arabs) and the Palestinians recognise the "Hindiye" and have a huge amount of affection for desis does not mean I am arguing from a position of no personal experience of the region or the conflict.

Moreover that is a particularly dangerous proposition - the idea that only one who lives in a place can argue for/against what is happening. By that logic, not a single non-Chinese person is allowed to speak for Tibet (just an example).

#153
Anamika
April 8, 2008
08:58 PM

ooops sorry for the multiple negatives...that should read: "Just because I think..." (as opposed to I don't....)

#154
smallsquirrel
April 8, 2008
09:16 PM

anamika.. that "you" was not direct at YOU per se... and since you have not said that you have personal experience with israel I would obviously assume that you do not. I assume most people do not. but that was a general comment.

I did not say "if you have not lived something do not comment." what I did say, well imply... is that without living something it makes it much easier to make assumptions that *could* be wrong. there may be nuances that you won't understand.

do I think that is an absolute? of course not. your tibet example is a good example of why that is.

but do I think I understand india better than a person who read everything about it but never went there? it is probably good bet. better than someone who was born and raised there and still lives there? most likely not.

there are many many degrees of understanding.

#155
temporal
URL
April 8, 2008
09:28 PM

yes there are...and visiting/living adds a perspective that 'reading' does not;)

btw

am in a very generous mood today...granting conditonal prophethoods

any takers?

#156
smallsquirrel
April 8, 2008
09:33 PM

yes, I want to be the supreme prophet of cupcakes. or bacon. bacon is so lovely.

:)

#157
temporal
URL
April 8, 2008
09:45 PM

by the powers vested in me by meself from time that has no beginning and no end i declare thee the high priestess and prophet of bacon

go and bring smile to the hungry!

#158
Morris
April 8, 2008
10:14 PM

Man Singh
You raised some valid points. But the folks here seem to have been bogged down with Ruvy and other peripheral chit chat. I detect some reluctacy in willingness to discuss the issues you raised. You have been told about some errors that is about all. I agree that Israel- Palestanian issue is part of it. But that is not all of it.

#159
Anamika
April 9, 2008
04:31 AM

Morris: Man Singh's point - that differentiates humanity into monolithic Muslim and non-Muslim blocs per se - is in itself an example of Islamophobia.

Who are these "good" Muslims that he insists should come forward? Do the Muslims on this board count?

In a recent story in a London paper, a Muslim cleric made an interesting point: He said that he would go to "interfaith" discussions and meetings to present the "moderate" view. And after an hour of discussion, he would be asked "where are the moderate Muslims?" He said it made him feel like he had been talking to the air. And when he would point out that they HAD been talking to a "moderate" Muslim, people generally looked at him blankly or as if he were some kind of a bizarre creature.

The point is that yes there is a much publicized fanatic element to Islam. But that is no different from the fanatic element in (1) any religion that insists on one sole truth and (2) in varying degrees and different reasons, in any collective entity composed of humans.

Yet why is it that Islam is being treated as a special category? Why are we using the lead of the fanatic fringe instead of listening to the vast numbers who simply want to go on with their lives?

One of the characters makes a good point in the Pakistani film "Khuda ke Liye" - despite the horrors he faces in America for being a Muslim and Pakistani, he tells his wife, "I dont hate all Americans because that would mean hating you, so try also not hating all Muslims."

And yet its sad that it has to be said. Most of us - even on this board - are happy to make long lists of "exceptions" - APJ Abdul Kalam, Shah Rukh Khan, Azeem Premji and so on - of "good" Muslims and then continue harping on how Islam is fanatic. Well, on what grounds? Except of course Islamophobia.

SS: I agree with part of what you have said re grades of understanding. Unfortunately, I do not believe that a personal experience can be anything more than an extremely limited window to the world - series of postcards if you will which provide a quick snapshot but are extremely limiting (and intellectually risky) as a guide to the totality of a situation or place. I would be hesitant to generalise my experience alone to all of the US and assert wild claims regarding the US ("All American women over the age of 12 have been abused" - to turn around your own last article). Personal experience may be an entry point into a situation but cannot be made the only one.

I realise that we will have to disagree on this, especially since the "personal experience" obviously forms a keystone of your world-view.

Also simply "living an experience" is not an indicator of understanding. You may well "understand" urban India better than someone who has grown up in a backwaters village with no schooling and no access to information on India.

Sam applies elsewhere: would you accept without critique the view of a fanatic living in some backwater of India on the whole of India just because he/she LIVES there? Is some Shiv Sena or SIMI activist with little more than fanaticism really a point of engagement regarding the contemporary situation and politics of India?

I am not saying they CANNOT speak; I am suggesting that what they say not be swallowed uncritically, or as the "whole" view. This applies to fanatics from the Shiv Sena, or SIMI - but also the neo-con bible-bashers, and Jewish settler-types who claim that god is a real estate agent handing out bits of land. They have the freedom of speech but their views MUST be challenged and critiqued. And on a bit more than "personal experience."


#160
commonsense
April 9, 2008
05:58 AM

right on anamika!

man singh's points derive from islamophobia: ie. a "moderate muslim" is either an oxymoron or so cowed down by the presumably dominant jihadi elements that he/she may well not exist. So a gesture in bad faith as in, look i'd love to avoid brushing all the followers and half-followers of the faith with the same brush, but does someone seriously believe that i have a choice?

As for our friend Ruvy: it is absolutely essential to rubbish his self-righteous, racist views without engaging with him rationally, since he provides no basis for the latter. Mainly for the benefit of others who are cought up in the currents of islamophobia...

SS: welcome back. the danger sometimes, of touting "personal experience" is the age-old problem of "trust me I was there" that seeks to terminate all conversation. Our friend Ruvy is not the only person who is experiencing the conflict in Israel/Palestine first hand. There are others too and they draw different conclusions. And then there are those like me who have no first hand experience but do not appeal to a direct connection to the real as opposed to a false god, to claim a monopoly on truth. Our friend is at his most hypocritical when he continously proclaims: this is what I believe and I do not tell you what to believe. Well, if the latter is true, keep your beliefs to yourself, especially when they relate to an issue that has many dimensions to it...

#161
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 9, 2008
06:35 AM

Morris,

It really is a shame that Anamika finds the doctrines of Judaism so disgusting, and takes her Jewish allies from amongst traitors against my people, like Ilan Pappe and Uri Avneri. She makes a number of cogent points in her post above that I fully agree with.

It is a serious error to view all Moslems as though they are good or bad, or as part of some monolithic entity. It is more important to view them as people who follow different streams of a faith that CAN be interpreted as a faith of conquest, but that need not necessarily be so. In this sense, Islam is much like Christianity. Christians hustling their beliefs among Hindus is offensive to many of you, as Christians hustling their beliefs among Jews is offensive to me. But compared to the Church Militant, with its crusades and wars, its massacres and rapine, it is far preferable.

But what is really important to point out, which has barely been mentioned on this comment thread, is that Islam has been stolen by a rebel sect that now poses as the representative of all of it, and which funds millions into madrassas all over the Moslem world and elsewhere to spread its heretical ideas. The Wahhabi, who now control Makka and Medina, were until the 1920's a rebel sect that been kicked out of the Moslem faith for failing to view Allah as a non-corporeal entity. This is a fundamental concept common to both Moslems and Jews.

It is almost as if a Mormon had succeeded in getting elected Pope and was spreading Mormonism as the one apostolic Christian faith from Rome. When you view "Fitna", Geert Wilder's 15 minute piece on terror in Europe and America, you do not realize this at all. Most Europeans do not realize that the Wahhabi have stolen Islam from its rightful believers and turned it into a nightmare of what it had been, both for believers and non-believers. What Geert Wilder attacks is not Islam, but the Wahhabi monster posing under the robes of Islam. What is taught to the Moslem kids in Europe is not Islam but a Wahhabi fake.

The Wahhabi theft of Islam is so thorough that many Moslems do not realize this either and think that the beliefs pushed in the madrassas in Pakistan, for example, are the true faith. They are not.

But the Sunni have been effectively silenced, and what comes over the microphones from mosques across most of the Arab world are the hateful diatribes of murder that are the staple of Wahhabism. So outside of India, Malaysia and Indonesia, this is the face that the world associates with Islam.

My friend in central India who has invited me to come to his home town has a Moslem name, and fears for the fate of Moslems in his country, fearing that in India, Hindus, like "Christians" (believing Christians are a rare commodity in Europe these days) in Europe will decide that they have had enough of Moslems and decide to kill them off. He trembles when he reads of communal violence between Hindus and Moslems. Having read of how many people die so casually in communal violence in India in article after article here at this site, I easily understand his fears.

The Moslem scholar in Europe from whom I've learnt a great deal of what I know about Islam has similar, well justified fears. A hate against "Moslem" culture is building daily there and will explode in the not too distant future.

When you realize that the IOC is nothing but a mouthpiece for the Wahhabi, who by their control of Makka and Medina, now have respect in the Moslem world, you realize why Dr. Dasgupta raises the questions he does in his article on "Islamophobia" and the IOC's report. The only real problem with his article is that is named wrong. It should be called Wahhabi-phobia, for that is what the world really hates.

And rightfully so.

#162
Anamika
April 9, 2008
07:13 AM

Ruvy: "It really is a shame that Anamika finds the doctrines of Judaism so disgusting, and takes her Jewish allies from amongst traitors against my people, like Ilan Pappe and Uri Avneri. She makes a number of cogent points in her post above that I fully agree with."

Ilan Pappe and Uri Avneri traitors? Just as Zawahiri thinks Naguib Mahfouz is a traitor?

Keep going old man, you do really well to expose your fanaticism.

#163
Gill
April 9, 2008
09:33 AM

>>>>You said "chori aur seena jori" - let me ask you: you are an Indian right? Lets say you live in the Punjab. You farm the land your great grandfather managed to buy from the landlord, paid huge lagaan on to the British. It is a difficult life but you love that land.

Now what happens if someone comes to your house and says "this is my house because it belonged to me 2000 years ago."<<<<<<

I do not know what point you are trying to make. But you should also not twist Historical facts around either.

Islam has already taken away 80% of our ancestral Punjab. And Islam was not their 2000 years ago. It came and forcefully claimed our ancestral land in the name of their Prophet and Religion. And as per imperialist character of Islam the new claimed lands have to have a separate entity. And today majority of Punjab is Pakistan which infact is our ancestral lands. Even the first Vedas were written in Punjab. And Indus that gives identity to both our land and our culture is not even ours.

So what is this fuss about Israel and Jews. You simply sound like a hypocrite or maybe it is the Stockholm syndrome that is at work. No offense but by your staunch defence of Islamists and Palenstinians and comparing Jews to Nazis etc it seems you are literally living in "Islamophobia". It seems you are doing "seena jori" on Islams behave and justifying Islams "chori" by making above statement. Maybe your resort is that Israel should go the same way that Punjab went to Islam.

From your logic it seems that creation of Khalsa and Sikhs by Guru Gobind Singh was Nazism too!!!!!!! Maybe all this Islamic jihad and terrorism in India is because of the fact we are still holding 20% of our ancestral Punjab. God in the name of "humanity and peace" we should give it to Islam too.

And I guess Jews and Israel should learn from us great intellectually and spiritually inclined Indians!!!!!!!

#164
Chandra
April 9, 2008
11:14 AM

Ruvy: My friend in central India who has invited me to come to his home town has a Moslem name, and fears for the fate of Moslems in his country, fearing that in India, Hindus, like "Christians" (believing Christians are a rare commodity in Europe these days) in Europe will decide that they have had enough of Moslems and decide to kill them off. He trembles when he reads of communal violence between Hindus and Moslems. Having read of how many people die so casually in communal violence in India in article after article here at this site, I easily understand his fears.

Chandra: I have not read a more speculative post than this one. How many people die a year in India because of communal violence? Can you look at data of last 50 years and show me evidence that things have worsened in recent times? If you cannot do that this whole post is speculative.

#165
Anamika
April 9, 2008
12:00 PM

Well Man Singh, now we come to the root of your Islamophobia and ignorance of history. You like your little rural stories of life in the village, so let me tell you the story of Israel in as simple words as possible:

The JEWS were expelled from Israel 2000 years ago. By the ROMANS! Who were neither Christian nor Muslims. And after the NAZIS (some of whom were atheist but ALL of whom were from CHRISTIAN traditions) finished their killings in 1945, the (Zionist) Jews got to get what they called THEIR land back by forcibly ROBBING it from the people who lived there with the help of another bunch of CHRISTIANS who felt guilty for not having stopped the Jews from being killed earlier, and found it easy to use somebody else's land to pay for that guilt.

Seems to me the only one doing chori and seena jori are the Zionists. And you - my friend - are playing the cheerleader for a bunch of murdering thieves.

You have decided "Muslims" stole your land - which ones? Persians, Afghans, Arabs or Turks? Its important to know because just as Germans, French, Spanish and English have fought wars for hundreds of years despite being Christians, these "Muslims" also are not the same and don't particularly like eachother. So WHO stole your land?

Also since you like your village analogies: Lets say your bhains gets "stolen" by somebody. And then one day, you see somebody stealing another person's bhains. Who do you support? The thief or the person whose bhains is being stolen?

Rationality, fairness and justice has nothing to do with stockholm syndrome or specific cultures. It has to do with being fearless when following the path of dharma even when it is difficult, and following your own conscience. But maybe Islamophobia has made your akal to go ghaas charne.

And I suggest you put your kirpaan away before you hurt yourself with the extent of your ignorance of Sikh history and tradition. Guru Gobind Singh fought the political injustice of the Mughal rulers NOT the Muslims. If Sikhism were so full of hate for the Muslims, why were so many of Guru Gobind's followers Muslims? READ your history.




#166
Gill
April 9, 2008
12:50 PM

>>>>why were so many of Guru Gobind's followers Muslims?<<<<<

This is a new one. Can you please let us know where do you find them. I would really like to meet Muslim followers of Guru Gobind Singh

>>>>Guru Gobind Singh fought the political injustice of the Mughal rulers NOT the Muslims.<<<

And this one is best!! Mughals were not "Muslims".....

#167
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 9, 2008
12:52 PM

Chandra,

Speculation?

No, it is not speculation, it is the impression gained from reading piece after piece here at Desicritics about one group killing another in India - not 1,000 or 2,000 years ago, those that is here too, but within the last year or so that this site has been running.

I'm not specifying which group did the killing, or who is right. Frankly, I can't. But if we in Israel acted the way Indians do towards each other - today, last year, over the last fifty years - not only would tens of thousands of Arabs have been killed, but thousands of Jews of different backgrounds would be having pitched battles all over the country. Each and every week!

It would be an interesting bookkeeping task to record how many Indians and Pakistanis have been murdered off in communal riots in the last year or so since Aaman started up Desicritics. Mind you, it would only be a list, not a judgment of any kind. A foreigner like me could not even attempt a judgment.

If you wanted to weasel out from the stink of death that would arise from such an accounting, you could perhaps argue that there are 100 Indians for each Israeli, so there are naturally more Indians killed.

But the last time I looked, each person who mourns a loved one mourns, no matter how large or small the per capita loss is.

Death is death, and grief is grief.

Perhaps you would prefer that we Israelis act like you Indians and murder off minorities in our midst as you do? Indeed we could learn much from your ancient culture - of communal murder.

Can you look at data of last 50 years and show me evidence that things have worsened in recent times?

You mean I'm supposed to judge if your behavior has worsened over the last half century?

I'll tell you something, Chandra. I view Uri Avneri, Ilan Pappe and Shimon Tzabar as traitors. But even in their treason they pursue a fundamental Jewish value of social justice!!

What is social justice?

Social justice is helping the poor, even when you yourself are poor; it is helping others find peace, even when your own house is disturbed; it is speaking up for the voiceless and helping the persecuted.

And even in their misguided treason, Avneri, Pappe and Tzabar attempt to do this!

But you? You whine that telling you about the stink of blood that arises from the Indian sub-continent in communal murders is speculative! You challenge me to find that your collective behavior has not worsened over the last half century! This is social justice? NO!! This is the voice of a person saying, "I'm alright cause my hands are not bloodier this year than they were last year, and you can't prove otherwise!"

This is not the voice of social justice, it is the voice of butchery!

My friend from the center of your country knows how much social justice he can expect from the lot of you; so he is scared. I thought I understood. I didn't. Now I truly understand.

#168
Man Singh
URL
April 9, 2008
12:53 PM

Good Anamika # 165

At least discussion is on the track again on the real topic. You agree in your opening statement that Jews were kicked out of their homeland by Romans and do agree that its land of Jews now being claimed by ...

You kept silent on a number of other internation examples I quoted from Kosovo to Phillippine don'nt know why?

You perefered to ridicule me for my rural background only because you could not find any argument or justification for the crime against humanity being done by fanatic Muslims(I never said all muslims are bad?). You are trying to portrtay me as anti Muslim though I very clearly mentioned I am against jehadis (who may a be mere fraction among them but have potential to create havoc on the earth).

Yes Sikh Gurus were always fighting against injustice. Mian Mir founded Harmandir Sahib and Guru Gobind Singh Ji maharaj fought against fanatic Aurangjeb side by side.

This is exactly case with me. I am never against Muslims in general. I am against jehadis enagaged in killing and conversion. people like you immedialtely brand person like me as `against Muslims' in spite of knowing well that i am against `killer jehadis'.

So far as justice and fairness is concerned Anamica, when India was divided 24% Muslims were given 28% land. half of muslims remained in india only. Now they are demanding kashmir as well. there is no end to this chain as they have divine orders from Allah to capture whole earth and Islamise it.

Forget about 1000 years of bloody history of India, even recently 3 million lives were lost in 1947 during partition of India along with financial loss of billions of dollors in the name of Islam only. Muslims demanded a separate homeland as they can not live with their Kafir brothers.

In spite of seeing writing on the wall, if humanity wants to live in fools paradise and prefers to ignore a bomb ready to blast right on its head, it means it is blinded by propanda.

I wish Commonsense will prevail.

Yes thief need to punished and Bhains should be returned to its owner.

With your logic Anamica, land of Jews should be returned to jews.

Ramjanam Bhumi should be returned to Hindus and Thiefs should be punished. Do you agree to your own logic?

Think again Anamica :

What happened in Kosovo within 50 yrs. Serb majority reduced to minority due to killing, conversion, infilteration and production and captured by Muslim fanatics.

What's happening in kashmir. Conversion killing kicking hindu out producing a lot of kids and capture the land.

South thailand :Killing conversion, infilteration and production and capture the land?

Southern Phillipphine : Killing conversion, infirtration aproduction and capture.

No matter gang of thieves Arabs Turks Afgans etc were fighting among themselves I dun care. they tortured Indians is my cause of concern. Should that mentality be condemned or justified?

Torturing innocent beings is the biggest sin Anamica and helping the needy is the biggest dharma. Therefore let's be honest and condemn all those who tortured innocents.

They may be Muslim Jehadis, Burners of Godhra Train or rioters after Godhra or anybody else.

Unfortunately we are selective in cricising. We try to defend violence and crime of some groups while blaming others for the same crime.

let's be fare to all anamica. let's be fare to Hindus and jews as well as they are also part of humanity. Some among them also do bad things and should be condemned.

Yes please stick to your philosophy of `Bhains should be returned to its owners and Thief should be punished'

being a village boy, I am always open to fresh sensible ideas.

#169
Man Singh
URL
April 9, 2008
12:54 PM

Good Anamika # 165

At least discussion is on the track again on the real topic. You agree in your opening statement that Jews were kicked out of their homeland by Romans and do agree that its land of Jews now being claimed by ...

You kept silent on a number of other internation examples I quoted from Kosovo to Phillippine don'nt know why?

You perefered to ridicule me for my rural background only because you could not find any argument or justification for the crime against humanity being done by fanatic Muslims(I never said all muslims are bad?). You are trying to portrtay me as anti Muslim though I very clearly mentioned I am against jehadis (who may a be mere fraction among them but have potential to create havoc on the earth).

Yes Sikh Gurus were always fighting against injustice. Mian Mir founded Harmandir Sahib and Guru Gobind Singh Ji maharaj fought against fanatic Aurangjeb side by side.

This is exactly case with me. I am never against Muslims in general. I am against jehadis enagaged in killing and conversion. people like you immedialtely brand person like me as `against Muslims' in spite of knowing well that i am against `killer jehadis'.

So far as justice and fairness is concerned Anamica, when India was divided 24% Muslims were given 28% land. half of muslims remained in india only. Now they are demanding kashmir as well. there is no end to this chain as they have divine orders from Allah to capture whole earth and Islamise it.

Forget about 1000 years of bloody history of India, even recently 3 million lives were lost in 1947 during partition of India along with financial loss of billions of dollors in the name of Islam only. Muslims demanded a separate homeland as they can not live with their Kafir brothers.

In spite of seeing writing on the wall, if humanity wants to live in fools paradise and prefers to ignore a bomb ready to blast right on its head, it means it is blinded by propanda.

I wish Commonsense will prevail.

Yes thief need to punished and Bhains should be returned to its owner.

With your logic Anamica, land of Jews should be returned to jews.

Ramjanam Bhumi should be returned to Hindus and Thiefs should be punished. Do you agree to your own logic?

Think again Anamica :

What happened in Kosovo within 50 yrs. Serb majority reduced to minority due to killing, conversion, infilteration and production and captured by Muslim fanatics.

What's happening in kashmir. Conversion killing kicking hindu out producing a lot of kids and capture the land.

South thailand :Killing conversion, infilteration and production and capture the land?

Southern Phillipphine : Killing conversion, infirtration aproduction and capture.

No matter gang of thieves Arabs Turks Afgans etc were fighting among themselves I dun care. they tortured Indians is my cause of concern. Should that mentality be condemned or justified?

Torturing innocent beings is the biggest sin Anamica and helping the needy is the biggest dharma. Therefore let's be honest and condemn all those who tortured innocents.

They may be Muslim Jehadis, Burners of Godhra Train or rioters after Godhra or anybody else.

Unfortunately we are selective in cricising. We try to defend violence and crime of some groups while blaming others for the same crime.

let's be fare to all anamica. let's be fare to Hindus and jews as well as they are also part of humanity. Some among them also do bad things and should be condemned.

Yes please stick to your philosophy of `Bhains should be returned to its owners and Thief should be punished'

being a village boy, I am always open to fresh sensible ideas.

#170
Morris
April 9, 2008
01:02 PM

I like to deviate a bit. Why there is a need for organization of Islamic countries. I am not aware of similar organizations of other faiths. Perhapa there are, but they certainly do not seem to have same stature. Was it organized to react against the Islamophobia which was already there? What is the need for such organization? Why do we call a country Islamic country? Why not Denmark a Chritian country?

Granted Islam is not a monolythic religion. But there seems to be a very strong defensive feeling which unite them all irresective of their differences against any criticism. Criticism from within is almost not tolerated. Critisism from outside usually result into massive and often violent protests around the world. Surely we can point out similar reactions in other religions. But in Islam it seems to be away more than any other.

I believe the world is still divided between Islam and the rest. The religion started with believers and non believers. And still remains. Is it the rest of the world or Islam is causing this? Of course there are moderate Muslims all over the world. But also all over the world, as soon as they are majority they want their country most likely an Islamic republic. Minority usually become insignificant number in due course. And all those moderate muslims do not seem to be able to help. In spite of all those moderate muslims in Bangladesh, my fear is that Hindus will continue to flee. I hope I am wrong. Is this Islamophobia? I don't think so. But I do call as I see and I admit that I could be wrong. So perhaps Wilder worries about this.

#171
Man Singh
URL
April 9, 2008
01:16 PM

Kashmir in India is the worst case Morris. worst then Bangla Desh.

I request educated compassionate intellectuals to please carry our a case study of Kashmiri, pakistani and bangla desi Hindus about their living conditions in last 50 years.

Please. how they reduced to minority in their own country.

Unfortunately intellectual honesty is comrposmised in the name of secularism and political correctness and Truth is the first casualty in such cases.



#172
Anamika
April 9, 2008
01:35 PM

Man Singh - are you SURE your ancestors were in the Punjab 2000 years ago? Is it really your land you are talking about or somebody else's that you took?

The Jews who were expelled by the Romans did so after a war that they lost. They then spread over many parts of the world. Yet the land that was "returned" to them was given to a group a European Jews (even Indian Jews have been treated like second class citizens by Israel - read the actress Nadira's experience of Israel when her family tried to "return" there).

The Jews who returned had little to do with the Middle East, Palestine or indeed its culture. The whole basis of that "return" is fanaticism and spurious religious reasoning.

As re your other points - you are unable to rationally debate the first set re: WHY a land that has been lived in/owned/cared for by all sorts of people for 2000 years should suddenly be returned to someone who claims that it was theirs 2000 years ago. So far your arguments have been based on ignorance. And that INCLUDES your lack of knowledge of Sikhism.

Btw, yes Guru Gobind Singh fought Mughals and NOT Muslims, just as Gandhi/Azad/Bose/Bhagat Singh fought the British NOT Christians.

You REALLY want to give the bhains back? Well return it to the owner who had it for the past 2000 years and not to somebody who was gallivanting about in another part of the world during that time.

#173
Gill
April 9, 2008
01:36 PM

>>>>I like to deviate a bit. Why there is a need for organization of Islamic countries. I am not aware of similar organizations of other faiths<<<<

Islam is not just a religion. It is embedded Religious-Social-Political insitution. It governs every aspect of its followers life even including how to Piss. Can not be just looked upon as "religion" only.

Since Anamika is suggesting every one to read History maybe she should go back read Islams history. Islam has been simply Arabization of all conquered lands and its people. One has to note that Arabs with the institution of Islam have been the most successful "imperialists" of all times.

[no personal attacks]

#174
temporal
URL
April 9, 2008
02:22 PM

ana did you read this?

But the last time I looked, each person who mourns a loved one mourns, no matter how large or small the per capita loss is.

Death is death, and grief is grief.



of course deaths in occupied palestine do not count

Chandra # 164a;

very perceptive

and ana:

good summary that even a jellyfish or mushroom can understand

The JEWS were expelled from Israel 2000 years ago. By the ROMANS! Who were neither Christian nor Muslims. And after the NAZIS (some of whom were atheist but ALL of whom were from CHRISTIAN traditions) finished their killings in 1945, the (Zionist) Jews got to get what they called THEIR land back by forcibly ROBBING it from the people who lived there with the help of another bunch of CHRISTIANS who felt guilty for not having stopped the Jews from being killed earlier, and found it easy to use somebody else's land to pay for that guilt.



#175
Gill
April 9, 2008
02:24 PM

[post deleted. refrain from personal attacks please]

#176
Gill
April 9, 2008
02:56 PM

I was only emphasizing on what a Dhimmi is as per Islamic Institutions and comparision. Anyway here is the revised post

>>>>WHY a land that has been lived in/owned/cared for by all sorts of people for 2000 years should suddenly be returned to someone who claims that it was theirs 2000 years ago. So far your arguments have been based on ignorance. And that INCLUDES your lack of knowledge of Sikhism. <<<<

What are you talking about? I think you have lost it!!! What do you know about Khalsa, Sikhism or Punjab. Islamic expansion and attrocity in Punjab. I guess Nothing!!!!!

On one hand you are justifying taking 80% of Punjab by Islam and on the other hand you are accusing Jews of claiming their lands after couple of thousands of years. What a deviated thinking? Is this your Dharma and rationality and conscious that you so loudly propagated in your previous post.


>>>>> are you SURE your ancestors were in the Punjab 2000 years ago? Is it really your land you are talking about or somebody else's that you took?<<<<<

Hahaha what a typical Leftists statement..... You are right we have all been living in "illuhsion".. you have really enlightened us with the truth. I guess us Kafirs do not deserve to exist.....

And at the same time you have the audacity of making the following statement. You are really something....

>>>>>>> The Jews who returned had little to do with the Middle East, Palestine or indeed its culture. The whole basis of that "return" is fanaticism and spurious religious reasoning.<<<<<<

I guess when it comes to your "obsession" Islam than it is "cultural" claims and not ancestral claim of Israel but when it comes to Punjab it is legitimate and ancient culture and religion do not count... You claimed to be rationalist !!! You argumants sound typical to what Muslim Mullah say that before Islam there was Jahliat and the world started only after Islam......

#177
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 9, 2008
03:19 PM

The "poet" from Bramford quotes me: But the last time I looked, each person who mourns a loved one mourns, no matter how large or small the per capita loss is.

Death is death, and grief is grief.

And then mewls on:
of course deaths in "occupied 'Palestine'" do not count

Wrong again:

All death counts. NOTHING, BUT NOTHING IS LOST IN THE SIGHT OF G-D.

This includes the Arab civilians who die when the IDF has to go and try and deal with terrorist murderers; it includes the terrorists themselves; it includes the useful idiots from Europe and North America who aid and abet these terrorists; it includes members of the media kidnapped and killed; it includes members of foreign governments who are killed by terrorists; and most especially, it includes the victims of the terrorists - the people who are dead because the goal of the Wahhabi-influenced terrorists in Gaza and Judea and Samaria is to kill Jews and anyone who dares work with them.

But the numbers who die on the soil of the Land of Israel pale into insignificance when compared to the stink of death arising from the communal killing going on on the Indian sub-continent. And mind you, there is no "war" going on, no "genocide" going on; this is just business as usual. War, apparently meant three million dead, and G-d knows how much pain, sadness and bitterness.

And you dare complain and point a finger, you disgusting hypocrite?

ANSWER FIRST FOR THE STINK OF DEATH ARISING FROM THE INDIAN SUB-CONTINENT, TEMPORAL. FIRST ANSWER FOR THAT. PEOPLE LIVING IN GLASS HOUSES OUGHT NOT THROW STONES!

ANSWER FOR THE SINS OF YOUR OWN PEOPLE BEFORE YOU DARE ACCUSE ME!

#178
temporal
URL
April 9, 2008
03:22 PM

I was only emphasizing on what a Dhimmi is as per Islamic Institutions and comparision.

1: which century?
2: name countries where it is practied TODAY
3: what "islamic institutions"

:)

#179
temporal
URL
April 9, 2008
03:29 PM

stop frothing or you might be hospitalised ruvy

and maintain civility:)

read the guidelines: no personal attacks

and get your facts right - ask your god where i live - and if he replies to you you will know the error of your ways

;)

#180
Gill
April 9, 2008
04:03 PM

>>>> was only emphasizing on what a Dhimmi is as per Islamic Institutions and comparision.

1: which century?
2: name countries where it is practied TODAY
3: what "islamic institutions"
>>>>..

You must be kidding or you guys love to argue just for the sake of it!!!!

Just in April 07 in India
http://www.indianexpress.com/story/27206.html

Muslim Scholar Dr Z Naik says - In religious matters only we know for sure that we Muslims are right. They (non-Muslims) are not sure. Thus, in our country we can't allow preaching other religions because we know for sure that only Islam is the right religion. However, if a non-Muslim likes to practise his religion in an Islamic country, he can do so inside his home -- but he can't propagate his religion. It is exactly as if a teacher thinks in his mind that 2 plus 2 equals 3. He has the right to do so, but we can never allow such a person to teach this to our children. Non-Muslims are no doubt experts in science and technology. But they (non-Muslims) are not sure about religious truths. Therefore, we are trying to get them to the right path of Islam."

----

All Islamic nations ruled by "Islamic Law" practice it. Saudi Arabia does it staunchly. it is status and term under ISLAMIC LAW. Consult any Islamic scholars who are expert in Islamic Law and they will let you know.

You so conveniently forgot Afghanistan and even Pakistan right in our backyard. And ofcourse Bangladesh and Taslima who got into trouble for exposing the Dhimmitude of Hindus in Bangladesh



#181
Man Singh
URL
April 9, 2008
04:21 PM

Yes Anamika #172

"are you SURE your ancestors were in the Punjab 2000 years ago? Is it really your land you are talking about or somebody else's that you took?"

I am not from Punjab. I am from UP man Singh Merathwaala. Did I ever told you I am from Punjab?

"The Jews who were expelled by the Romans did so after a war that they lost. They then spread over many parts of the world. Yet the land that was "returned" to them was given to a group a European Jews"

Its fine. At least justice prevailed and Jews constantly opressed for 2000 years got compensation. It should be celebrated and symbolises that `satyameva jayta'

"(even Indian Jews have been treated like second class citizens by Israel - read the actress Nadira's experience of Israel when her family tried to "return" there)."

This is altogather different issue and should be discussed in separate thread Anamika. Such irrelevat quotations kill the very soul of discussion.

"The Jews who returned had little to do with the Middle East, Palestine or indeed its culture. The whole basis of that "return" is fanaticism and spurious religious reasoning."

No Anamika. I beg to differ. If Kashmiri Pandits are handed over their property left by their forfathers even after 2000 years, it indicates high morality of decision makers and upholding of justice and deserve appreciation not criticism.


"As re your other points - you are unable to rationally debate the first set re: WHY a land that has been lived in/owned/cared for by all sorts of people for 2000 years should suddenly be returned to someone who claims that it was theirs 2000 years ago."

Anamika you are trying to justify the loot. If a thief stolen my Bhains, took care of her to fetch more and more milk, does it mean that thief has got a right on it. Bhains belongs to me still and thief should be put in jail.

If decendents of thief are enjoying my looted property, they should voluntarily return my looted property or face the jail why not?

" So far your arguments have been based on ignorance. And that INCLUDES your lack of knowledge of Sikhism."

Anamika I am a village boy ignorant of history written by iperialists and their associates. I know history told by my forfathers and transfered from generation to generation. Does `ignorant' people deserve justice or not? Should I deserve to get my Bhains or not?


"Btw, yes Guru Gobind Singh fought Mughals and NOT Muslims, just as Gandhi/Azad/Bose/Bhagat Singh fought the British NOT Christians."

On this issue our views match perfectly. Great Gurus did not even fought with Mughals u r wrong Anamika. They fought against Tyranny. they never fought with Darashikoh?

Jehadis are tyrants of modern times.All Muslims are not jehadis anamika but all jehadis are muslims. Islamophobia is terror of Jehadis. It is very real.

"You REALLY want to give the bhains back? Well return it to the owner who had it for the past 2000 years and not to somebody who was gallivanting about in another part of the world during that time."

I am the victim Anamika. My land, my people, and my Bhains was looted by force and I want it back. Why not?

Jews are lucky they got their looted heritage back partially. We Indians still waiting to get the same? But Anamika enemy is very clever. he is making us fight within oursleves.



It was Gaddar Raja Man Singh who fought on behalf of tyrant Akbar and defeated all Indian kings to make them slave of Akbar.

Somnath was lost due to traitorship of a priest.

Bengal was lost to east India Company due to traitorship of Meer jafar.

Anamika jaichands, Man Singh's Meerjafar's caused the downfall of this great nation.

But even today such associates of enemies are present in our society and I am pretty sure this nation will fell not because lack of charity valour or other humane values of its people but due to traitors within.

We alway try to demonise the victims and side with tyrants and invaders.

What makes you to declare a anti jehadi person equal to Anti Muslim? Don'nt you feel it is wrong and irrational.

I love my village Anamika and hate dacoits looting it.

I love my country and hate invaders assaulting it.

I love this whole creation and hate those engaged in torturing this whole creation.

You please let the people know whose side are you. Are you on side of invaders or victim villagers?

#182
temporal
URL
April 9, 2008
04:30 PM

you guys?

as in YOU guys?

or as in you guys?

or as in you guys?

and try answering the questions again:

1: which century?
2: name countries where it is practied TODAY
3: what "islamic institutions"


;)

hint: i have not read naik but have read other writers and last i checked there were over 50 countries with muslim majorities and am not sure of even one that calls its citizens dhimmies - so please check facts before hitting keyboard

#183
temporal
URL
April 9, 2008
04:52 PM

man singh 181:

let us try bhains

1: a bhains was stolen by A from B in 1000BC
2: B steals it from C in 2000AD

use your heralded village wisdom and tell us how this fares

#184
Gill
April 9, 2008
05:11 PM

>>>40-50 countries with muslim majorities and am not sure of even one that calls its citizens dhimmies - so please check facts before hitting keyboard>>>>>

Same goes for you too. Who is talking about Muslim Majority nation?? I said Islamic nation ruled by Islamic Law.

What is a non-muslim satus "officially" called in an Islamic nation? Lets say saudi arabia!

#185
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 9, 2008
05:31 PM

At least justice prevailed and Jews constantly opressed for 2000 years got compensation. It should be celebrated and symbolises that `satyameva jayta'

Hmmm...

Nice that someone understands justice, Anamika. Looks like those guys from the villages are a lot sharper than you give them credit for. And they don't let themselves get shouted down either, do they?

Hear! hear! Kol hakavód, Man Singh! Bravo č bravissimo!

Blessings from Samaria,
Reuven

#186
Morris
April 9, 2008
05:45 PM

Hey Ruvy, I don't have any problem with that. That was fair and square. It is those illegal settlements they are building in the west bank which is simply grabbing some one's property. Their credibility suffers. Why are they doing this? It simply makes any negotiation extremely difficult. One wonders whether they do want piece.
May be not, they want more land.

#187
Morris
April 9, 2008
05:47 PM

Peace

#188
temporal
URL
April 9, 2008
05:48 PM

alright gill

name ONE islamic nation ruled by islamic law

(and btw not even saudi america calls them what you suggest)

and

of course this:

1: which century?
2: name countries where it is practied TODAY
3: what "islamic institutions"


and ruvy you can attempt the bhains question if it is within your reach
while at it stop throwing around obsolete words

:)

#189
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 9, 2008
06:45 PM

while at it stop throwing around obsolete words

Yeah, I could see where you would find words like "justice" obsolete, Temporal....

Along with a whole bunch of other words, like "truth" and "honesty". I understand. When playing around with words to get rhyme and meter straight, "justice", "truth" and "honesty" just don't fit; one of the problems of being a poet, eh?

#190
temporal
URL
April 9, 2008
06:51 PM

heheh

now you are onto something ruvy

so look up these words


* ghettoisation
* bantustanisation
* occupation
* displacement
* killing non combatants
* the new Nazis
* the new Davids


and once you have returned the assignment i will give you another one

the word "dhimmie" is obsolete - only used by bigots

the new word is "friend"

;)


ps: and try the bhains query as well

#191
commonsense
April 9, 2008
07:09 PM

good gawd, this is still going strong! i wish i had more access to the net, but i'm on the road.

the last time our friend Ruvy was cornered, he eventually started screaming and shouting (in upper case / writing in capital) after the initial frothing and foaming. And what I worry about is this: he did mention something about his family suffering because of his arguments with us. I do hope he is handling this better and his family is not inadvertently paying for a line that he and his associates (Gill, Man Singh)are pushing....Despite his persistent name-calling, vicious personal attacks as substitutes for reason and arguments, I have nothing personal against him nor against Gill and Man Singh. But I do worry about his family and hope that he will try to "compartmentalize" this discussion and not let it spill over to the familial domain.

Damn, as someone who thrives on flushing out nonsense, illogical cant and assorted delusions, I wish I had more than sporadic access to the net!

#192
commonsense
April 9, 2008
07:26 PM

not clear why our friend ruvy who has the backing of the one true god, as opposed to all the false gods, non-gods, idolators etc., even bothers to argue with others who are not part of the chosen people. he should learn to trust his god and relax...whatever happens, your god is will no doubt take care of you and ensure that the piece of real estate that he personally handed over to you and your people will always be yours. and no doubt he will see to it that all the "traitors" within the Jewish community will eventually be exposed. not sure which is it: he does not trust his own one true god, or does he believe in that cliche, "god helps those who help themselves"?

#193
Gill
April 9, 2008
07:29 PM

>>>>the word "dhimmie" is obsolete - only used by bigots

the new word is "friend"<<<<<

Don't we all wish we lived in a perfect and idealistic world!!!!! Anyway way "Dhimmis" concept is still integeral part of Islam and its insitutions. I suggest you do a little more research on Deoband islam in south asian context. Idealism and Reality are way too different things.

#194
commonsense
April 9, 2008
07:43 PM

Gill:

"This is a new one. Can you please let us know where do you find them. I would really like to meet Muslim followers of Guru Gobind Singh"

for starters:

"Saiyad Khan was a brother-in-law of Pir Budhu Shah, and defected to the Guru's side, after the Pir spoke highly of him. Ramzan Khan then took the command of the imperial army, and allied with the hill Rajas to attack Anandpur in March 1704. It was the crop-cutting time of the year, and the majority of the Guru's followers had dispersed to their homes. Although the Guru was assisted by two of his Muslim admirers, Maimun Khan and Saiyad Beg..."

For more details, here: (a piece titled, "Muslim Saints and Supporters of Guru Gobind Singh Living without the Boundaries of Religious Prejudice"

http://www.mrsikhnet.com/index.php/2007/01/23/muslim-saints-and-supporters-of-guru-gobind-singh-living-without-the-boundaries-of-religious-prejudice/

But Gill Sahab, even though you asked for examples and I assumed, wrongly it turns out, that you know your history, if indeed you are a Sikh as you claim, all this is for other readers of this thread and not for you. You have already pawned your brains to the altar of sectarianism and cannot go beyond recycling orientalist cliches about the so-called incorrigible essence of Islam, unaffected by geography, history, cultural transformations, politics etc.

(How is that boycott of MS-Word coming along?)



#195
temporal
URL
April 9, 2008
07:47 PM

aha

so you have abandoned the whole "islamic world" and focus on deoband?

just like that other guy is obsessive over "wahabis"


ahchcha, educate us

is the whole world of muslims "deobandi"

if yes, not further questions

if no, then put a number on them and educate us on what the rest of them think about "dhimmies"

#196
commonsense
April 9, 2008
07:48 PM

Gill:

"This is a new one. Can you please let us know where do you find them. I would really like to meet Muslim followers of Guru Gobind Singh"

As the cliche goes, everyday we learn something new...if you need any more information about your own history, please don't hesitate to ask. It may take me a while to respond, but always there at your disposal...

#197
commonsense
April 9, 2008
07:56 PM

temporal,

yes indeed, after all the gross generalizations, the field is narrowed to deoband and the wahabis! What next: wasabi as the cause of the japanese kami-kazi pilots? these guys would be hilarious, were it not for the vicious sectarianisms they peddle...

#198
Gill
April 9, 2008
07:57 PM

Temporal

this one is for you!!! I guess there is no concept of "Dhimmi" in Islamic nation!!!!!!! Maybe I am ignorant or you are.....

Today in News

http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1159250

Hindu beaten to death for remarks on Prophet Muhammad in Pakistan
However, in the Pakistani society, it is easy to kill someone from the minority community and then accuse him of having committed blasphemy. Blasphemy is punishable by death in Pakistan, although no one has ever been executed for it, while communal tensions often run high whenever accusations of blasphemy are made.
The blasphemy law allows a person to register a case against anyone for blaspheming the Prophet Muhammad by word or deed.
----

#199
commonsense
April 9, 2008
08:08 PM

Gill, in response to Anamika:

"Hahaha what a typical Leftists statement....."

Heh heh...typical label flinging and sloganeering when rationality fails. Anamika has more than once indicated that she is a card-carrying member of the BJP...even our friend Ruvy remembers this. But why bother to reason when it's so much easier to hurl labels...

#200
Gill
April 9, 2008
08:09 PM

CS

Go ahead man!!! Keep trying I guess time has made you even more boring... you are loosing your touch!! Try harder

#201
Gill
April 9, 2008
08:21 PM

CS # 194

Nice try!!! I guess for you mercanries and followers are the same..... Keep it up!!

>>>>Heh heh...typical label flinging and sloganeering when rationality fails. Anamika has more than once indicated that she is a card-carrying member of the BJP<<<<

Wow still obsessed with division etc..... I guess as usual only rationality is your fetish leftism!! Right!!! I guess nothing has changed with time... communal traits do always come out..so you have set the rules that no left leaning person can be a BJP member!!! WOW what a segregation...But again what to expect from rationalists like you...Right!!!

#202
temporal
URL
April 9, 2008
08:21 PM

Gill:

you are so full of compassion and love it is touching.

so where were we?

ah yes, dhimmies

[btw am saddened to read that report - am against the loss of a single civilian life at the hand of an individual, organisation or state]

wonder how many of the hatemongers here can repeat the parenthesis after me?

#203
Gill
April 9, 2008
08:33 PM

>>>is the whole world of muslims "deobandi"<<<

Ignorance and arrogance at its best. I guess we all got to look at the world from your prism only!!!

Deoband is the largest followed and most influential Islamic school of thought and institution in south asia. And it counts what they preach and propagate. If you were not arrogant and self-righteous than you would have understand that Islam in Europe or in your south africa is irrelavant to me. Because it does not effect me or my society.



#204
Gill
April 9, 2008
08:50 PM

>>>>>saddened to read that report - am against the loss of a single civilian life at the hand of an individual, organisation or state<<<<<

Hypocracy at its best!!!! I do not see you shouting for Human rights and Minority rights in all these Muslim Nations. Why is that?? dhimmism in you is stopping it!!! Why don't you go and preach them the concept of "freedom of religion" and above all "equal minority" rights!!

Maybe thats never gone happen because of "fear" and ofcourse a "dhimmi" got to be fearful.

I wonder maybe this is your rationality at best!!!

#205
temporal
URL
April 9, 2008
08:51 PM

gill:

ok...so it is NOT islamophobia just your phobias?

hmmmmm

cs are you a shrink?

#206
Anamika
April 9, 2008
08:55 PM

As everyone has being going at it, a few clarifications:

1. Really silly to see Ruvy quote "satyameva jayata" - does he even KNOW what this means? And if he did, would he care? And if you dont know it, then DONT talk about it.

2. Loads of lack of knowledge and people regurgitating TV knowledge as "history" just to justify their personal hatred of Muslims. Why can't people do their reading?

3. Hilarious that the so-called defenders of Hindu/Sikh communities do nothing more than engage in hatred for Islam (mostly based on lack of information) and then support Ruvy - sad that Israeli/Zionist propaganda is working with the some of the desis; and good to realise that its working with Ruvy's equivalent in India and thank --- that THAT lot don't impact foreign policy.

4. So Man Singh, you are from Meerut - even WORSE as re: historical continuity! There is ZERO possibility that you can prove ownership of your land for the past 2000 years no matter HOW often you claim it. So lets not use that particular reason for Israel.

5. So I am a DHIMMI? How? Because I speak for dharma? Because I refuges to fall into the hatred that you lot do- who funnily enough use more Islamo-Christian logic than any on the board - and am a practising orthodox Hindu in terms of my beliefs and practice? Because I stand for dharma which means NOT placing personal interest but rather larger justice first as Krishna explained in the Bhagwad Gita? Argue my "dhimmidom" by showing my EXACTLY what you know of the six darsanas. Until then you expose nothing but your ignorance of Hindu history and philosophy!

And yes, this is the same lot that tells me that Guru Gobind Singh fought "Muslims" because they don't know their history or their religion. ALL they know is hatred and will express it on the net!

6. YES Ruvy remembered it correctly - I AM a card carrying member of the BJP. My grandfather was a member of the RSS. And (yes this ones is funny) Rajju bhaiyya - the head of RSS is ALSO part of my family. I grew up with Sanskrit text around me, learning and loving the classics - the same ones that few of the self-righteous defenders of Hinduism (and Islamophobes) have read or can defend!

The point is my loyalty is for India! And for that I will oppose Article 376 - not because it pisses off the mullahs but because it means that ALL parts of India are treated the same. The same reason I support a Uniform Civil Code - not because its anti-Muslim but its more rational to have a non-religious contemporary code of law for civil issues. I support India's right to nuclear technology and non-alignment. And I DONT believe that illegals should automatically be given citizenship. ALL of this makes me a BJP supporter and card-carrying party member and a former elected official.

What it DOESN'T mean is that I am an Islamophobe. And I HATE the people within BJP who ARE Islamophobes because they tear apart my country by suspecting people just for their religion. And that is neither RSS nor BJP mainstream but simply another bunch of fanatics!

#207
Gill
April 9, 2008
09:09 PM

>>>>gill:

ok...so it is NOT islamophobia just your phobias?<<<<<

Wow man!! you are really a master at it!!!

"Dhimmism" at its best... now i have phobia hahhaha.. because i call spade a spade!!!

Learnt something else also on rationality!!! thanks

#208
Morris
April 9, 2008
10:09 PM

You folks get tangled in a tree, branches and leaves
cannot see the forest.

#209
commonsense
April 9, 2008
10:17 PM

Anamika:

""The point is my loyalty is for India! And for that I will oppose Article 376 - not because it pisses off the mullahs but because it means that ALL parts of India are treated the same. The same reason I support a Uniform Civil Code - not because its anti-Muslim but its more rational to have a non-religious contemporary code of law for civil issues. I support India's right to nuclear technology and non-alignment. And I DONT believe that illegals should automatically be given citizenship. ALL of this makes me a BJP supporter and card-carrying party member and a former elected official.

What it DOESN'T mean is that I am an Islamophobe. And I HATE the people within BJP who ARE Islamophobes because they tear apart my country by suspecting people just for their religion. And that is neither RSS nor BJP mainstream but simply another bunch of fanatics!""

More power to you! (and less to those who recycle tv-serials as history). (Needless to add, the reference to your BJP membership was not an accusation of any sort whatsoever...was just amused at Gill's readiness to slap labels on arguments rather than dealing with them)

#210
commonsense
April 9, 2008
10:23 PM

Morris:

""Hey Ruvy, I don't have any problem with that. That was fair and square. It is those illegal settlements they are building in the west bank which is simply grabbing some one's property. Their credibility suffers. Why are they doing this?""

Good question, but sort of wasted on a guy who believes that spatial categories such as "the west bank" etc. are products of secular, cartographical delusion. You see, he rejects all these secular scientific instruments and technologies and relies only on the GPS or God's-own Positioning System. There are of course, many GPS's on the market, but Ruvy's GPS emanates from the one and only true God who also deals in real estate.

#211
commonsense
April 9, 2008
10:30 PM

Morris:

"You folks get tangled in a tree, branches and leaves cannot see the forest."

Such is the nature of cyber-discussions: endless tangents, diversions, baits taken and not taken, a million schizoid rhizomes....thanks for trying to get us back on track though :)

#212
Man Singh
URL
April 10, 2008
11:21 AM

temp bhai # 183

"1: a bhains was stolen by A from B in 1000BC"
2: B steals it from C in 2000AD"

You are wrong in statement `2'. same Bhains was looted by `C' in 700AD.

And poor `B' kept on crying. In 2000 AD `B' got an opportunity to get back his looted bahins. He takes it back.

Thieves A & C habitual of looting others wealth strated shouting at `B' heyy this Bahins is ours. We took care of her for so long and milked it and hence give it back to us otherwise we'll bomb you along with your Bhains.

`B' feels terrorised but still struggles to retain its lawful ownership on this bhains.

jews are fighting with thiefs and dacoits and terrorists like `B'

Hindus of Kashmir has been kicked out of ownership of their Bhains againt.

Most unofrtunate part of the story is that some villagers are behaving as associates of thieves and dacoits and siding with them in place of showing kindness to victim whose bhains has been taken away.

That's it.

Its simple my freinds. But vested interests in their enthusiasm to justify crime against humanity by terrorists are making it complicated.

#213
Chandra
April 10, 2008
12:44 PM

Ruvy 167

You have still not answered my question. How many Indian muslims killed in riots during the last one year?

#214
Man Singh
URL
April 10, 2008
01:05 PM

Commonsense # 194

Did I ever said Guru Bobind Singh fought with `Muslims' or `Mughals'?

No. Great Gurus always fought against tyrants. Jehaids are tyrants of today. Please don'nt equate jehadis to `all Muslims'.

These tyrants killed even Muslims sufi saints like mansoor.

It is wrong to equate brand anti jehaids as `anti muslims' or `anti mughals'.

So far as Dhimmitude is concerend, I'll share the real stories that can be verified privately as due to `political correctness' and `diplomatic reasons' victims dare not to speak out.

1. In malaysia every year King openly gives cash money to attaract new Converts to Islam during ramadan and id. malaysian news paper reports along with photographs are available for any sincere seeker.

2. In all Middle east countries even jail punishments are reduced if somebody converts to Islam.

3. A non muslim disctrict court Judge is malaysia is asked to convert if he wanst any further promotion. I personally met such victim but due to political corectness and terror of death forces him not to speak out.

4. A Chinese Budhist mechanical Engineer (Wong) working for PSR2 Refinery of Melacca state of Malaysia was never promoted fro 7 years. His M clss fellows became propject managers by that time. He was advised to come to shelter of Islam and Allah is very merciful and will do something. In June 2001 He listened to advise renamed himself as Daniel Wong and got promotion in spite of his parents being dead against the act.

There are many such real life examples where economic and mental duress is used on non muslims in Muslim countries.

Don'nt start again blaming victims in place of condemning the culprits please.

very name `islamic country' is an offensive to secular democratic humanity moving on the path of equality and justice. `Islamic'name itself is enough to feel the heat of inequality and injustice. Quarn specifically says that do not befriend with non mulsims and do not befriend with them.

Around 517 ayats of Quran out of 6336 Total (ie around 8%) are full of hate and violence towards non muslims. rest are fine. I discard these 8% the saem way I discard jehadis among Muslims.

I do not discrad or hate whole Quarn or all Muslims.
Please refer :

Do not choose disbelievers as friends. 4:144
Muslims that make friends with disbelievers will face a doom prepared for them by Allah. 5:80
Stay away from idolaters. 6:106
Allah will destroy non-muslim cultures. 7:138-9
Those that the Muslims killed were not really killed by them. It was Allah who did the killing. 8:17
Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. 9:5
Only idolaters are unclean. Keep them away from your places of worship. 9:28
Don't make be friends with with your disbelieving family members. Those who do so are wrong-doers. 9:23
I am an idolator my freind. I want to live in this world. Do you feel a child fed with such teachings since birth will ever consider `idolators` as human?




Anamika #206

Anamika you are repeating the same allegation.
`Anti jehadi' is not equal to `anti muslim'.

Yes Anamika I do hate these 517 Ayats of Quarn out of 6336 total. I do not hate remaining 5819.

Same way I do not hate muslims other then jehadis and terrorists and invaders.

Does your commonsense permits you to brand me a `anti muslim fanatic'.

BTW I hate some of teachings of Hindu scriptures as well. Will you brand me as `anti Hindu fanatic' as well for disliking a fraction of Hindu religious books?

#215
Man Singh
URL
April 10, 2008
03:21 PM

Guru Gobind Singh Ji (not Bobind) sorry for typo

#216
Morris
April 10, 2008
05:28 PM

Man Singh #214
I agree with your observation of Quran. I have read this holy book. Of course there are some good verses. But as you pointed out there are some very disturbing ones. They talk about interpretation, but some are so clearly written how can one change the meaning.

Needless to say there is a lot there that would inspire fanatics to do the crazy things that they are doing. No one seems to show any concern about these verses. No leadership within Islam would dare to disagree. Those of us who are not muslim do not talk about such things because we do not wish to offend our muslim brothers. That is very noble. But meantime Taliban can feel absolutely justified in blowing up Bhudha mountain statues. And they feel justified in harassing non-musims in Malaysia.

I know you folks don't want to talk about it but let me try once again. Is it the cause of Islamophobia among other things I pointed earlier?

#217
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 10, 2008
06:59 PM

You have still not answered my question. How many Indian Muslims killed in riots during the last one year?

First of all, my list would deal with how many Indians and Pakistanis died at each others hands in communal violence on the sub-continent. Second of all, and much more important, I have articles on the burner that need to be written for Desicritics, and those must come first.

So, when I get to it, I'll let yawl know....

#218
Man Singh
URL
April 10, 2008
07:19 PM

Morris # 216

Worst part of the story is that these verses of Quran demonises non muslims on community basis.

Like `Idolators are unclean' `Kill idolators wherever you find them' etc. It is gross stereotyping.

There are good people in every community. there are bad people in every community.

If Muslims minds are fed with poison againt non muslims on community basis, it is wrong and should be opposed by all right thinking people.

Inspiring to Search and kill of Idolators on community level is sort of call of rioting on community basis. A religious leader is least expected to do so no matter what context he was talking about.

Therefore I request all my freinds Muslims and non muslims to have a fresh look at all scriptures of the world including Quran and compaign to delete such hate mongering violent teachings wherever they find it against communities.

Yes I do agree all religions teach to eliminate the evil not eveil doers and not people worshiping differently.

This will be a big help to humanity.

#219
Gill
April 10, 2008
07:56 PM

>>>Those of us who are not muslim do not talk about such things because we do not wish to offend our muslim brothers.<<<<

Isn't that exactly what dhimmitude is as prescribed by Islam

>>>Is it the cause of Islamophobia among other things I pointed earlier?>>>>>

"IslamoPhobia" this again is a term constituted by "Dhimmis". Societies and people are not making up "Imaginary" fear. The acts of violence and destruction done in the name of Islam and justified by Islam are "real". Bottom line is that it is not "Phobia" infact it is real "suffering and destruction"

All one has to do is scan through a newspapers and you always find one

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?id=77a330cd-9349-4329-8c79-d58b71bcba93&&Headline=Man+assaulted+by+in-laws+for+refusing+to+convert

""""In Noida A man was reportedly thrashed by his in-laws in the Sector 18 market on Tuesday night for refusing to change his religion to Islam""""

These act does look like done by a "subjugated" society!!!!

You pointed out destruction of Buddhas. Is that a new phenomenon!!! No it is a process of Islamization since its conception. But did you see any of these Dhimmis pointing the source which encouraged and justified such acts as "pious" and "virtues". No none of them did instead these Dhimmis justified it as a reaction by muslims against the atrocities and subjugation that Islam suffers from non-islamic societies. This is the reason that there is no moderate voice in Islam and condemnation of such acts. You will never see any Islamic institutions coming out and condemning such heinous acts. why should the do? Because these dhimmis through their twisted reasoning and rationality always make the oppressor a victim and real victim the oppressor and as such forces the victim to accept the consequences as legitimate and natural.

And the biggest joke is these Dhimmis call this their Humanism, rationalism and intellect. And its always the leftist section of the society that are the staunch supporters. In reality both these insitutions have one goal and that is create "chaos" and "destruction" in "non" socieites and than implement their ideolgies and insitutions. If one looks around common people are suffering from both. It is leftism which is causing death & destruction in the name of "revolution" and similarly Islamists are doing the same in the name of "jihad".



#220
Morris
April 10, 2008
09:58 PM

Gill
I concur with your observation. I did not quite know what Dhimmi meant. But I understood your version of it very well.

I asked a question. Why the need for Islamic country? No Budhist country. No Christian country. I think the reason is simple. Unconciously or knowingly it does the same thing that is in Quran. It divides the world in two groups; believers and non-believers.

All religions have problems. But problems of Islam are going to affect the humanity in very profound way. Some would argue it has already done so. It may be phobia now. But I am afraid it is going to be real sooner or later.

#221
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 11, 2008
02:39 AM

Therefore I request all my friends, Muslims and non Muslims, to have a fresh look at all scriptures of the world including Qur'an and campaign to delete such hate mongering violent teachings wherever they find it against communities.

Morris,

While I heartily applaud your sentiments, both the Torah and the Qur'an are viewed by believers as the word of the Living G-d. Neither, no matter how upsetting their specific texts may be to non-believers, will be changed to fit the mere desires of mortal men, no matter how laudable those desires may seem. I leave to the practitioners of Dharma and Buddhists here to comment on their own texts. I am not qualified to.

#222
temporal
URL
April 11, 2008
02:48 AM

bottom line

no one has a divine right to occupy, displace, kill another human being in the name of their god

#223
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 11, 2008
03:34 AM

You still haven't answered for the barbaric behavior of Indians towards Indians, and Pakistanis towards Pakistanis, Temporal.

If you even have an answer, that is....

#224
Anamika
April 11, 2008
03:42 AM

Morris - the Koran builds on the Old and New Testaments and in many ways makes the ideas of those two more explicit.

However, the Koran relies far more on the OT than the new which makes it far closer to Judaism than Christianity - quite ironic given the current situation, but one reason that Judaism and Islam have not necessarily clashed the way these two have with Christianity UNTIL Judaism is linked to secular post-Enlightenment thinking and the idea of Zionism comes up (quite similar to the way Islam meets and evolves into MB-style radicalism). The idea of Judeo-Christian (read European) vs Islam is extremely recent (dating as a major form to post-WW2 and in minor implicit forms to late 19th century) and is linked entirely to Zionism. Prior to that the balances were quite different (read Ella Shohat amongst others on this if you want to get the scholarly version rather than my very brief/poor summary).

So in a very loose sense, the OIC's statement that Israel-Palestine issue contributes to Islamophobia is not that absurd. They just didn't argue it very well.

Btw, google Aaron Plotz's Blogging the Bible (Slate used to carry it) on the xenophobic hatefilled verses in the Old Testament, and indeed the very first religiously - or divinely - sanctioned genocides that appear in the OT. Koran merely follows its older siblings...and like all younger siblings, repeats clearly without linguistic veiling what the elders have said

#225
Anamika
April 11, 2008
03:45 AM

Re: 223: And we are waiting witht bated breath for those statistics that according to you demonstrate that Indians are out killing each other...Guess the real estate agent god does not have a sideline in data provision?

#226
temporal
URL
April 11, 2008
03:55 AM

try # 139,174, 179 and 190 [and you can use dictionary com if you wish]

;)

and try this for logic:

1: a bhains was stolen by A from B 5000 years back

2: B steals it from C TODAY citing his god



#227
temporal
URL
April 11, 2008
04:00 AM

ana 225

budgetary restraints?

or already stretched IQ?

#228
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 11, 2008
06:37 AM

Morris,

Perhaps you should get a Jewish perspective on all this rather than the seemingly scholarly ramblings of one who finds our faith disgusting....

The term "Zionism" arises in English Protestant literature in the 1600's, and was originally (under this name, anyway) pushed by Christians, in much the manner that Christians in Europe and North America were supportive of blacks setting up nations in Africa (Liberia and Sierra Leone) which were supposed to be developed as refuges for blacks enslaved in the New World and elsewhere.

Even though we have prayed daily for the in-gathering of our people from the four corners of the world for millennia, Jews did not push the idea of setting up a nation in their homeland BEFORE the arrival of a messiah until the writings of Rav Alkalai, z"l, of Serbia in the early 1800's (see the book of essays on the subject, The Zionist Idea for a more complete view of these concepts as they developed among Jews).

Even against the opposition of rabbis in Russia-Poland (the real hell of the Jewish world) Jews eventually decided that waiting for the messiah was not enough. When adopted by Jews in Europe, the idea of re-settling the homeland was adapted to the context of ridding the Christians of an excuse to persecute us.

While Moslems were viewed by European Jews as maimers, the Christians were viewed as killers, a perception that proved accurate indeed. Many Jews in Moslem lands (primarily the Ottoman Empire) had a very different view of Moslems, more akin to, but not identical to, that of Hindus in India.

During the 1800's the idea of Jews settling home was mostly the field of men of letters, even though Montefiore set up villages here in the 1880's (Rishon l'Tziyon and others) which grew wine and oranges.

However, by the early 1800's, before Herzl was born and before Rav Alkalai wrote his essays, Jerusalem had become a primarily Jewish city, and there had been a Jewish presence in Tz'fat and Hevron for centuries. The same is true for Gaza, but this was more an on-off affair.

Tuvia (Theodore) Hertzl, a Hungarian Jew writing for an Austrian newspaper, was the first one to really apply the Christian term "Zionism" to the idea of our return home, and in his hands, it became the idea of Jews being "a nation like all other nations" - an idea that is antithetical to Judaism, which defines Jews as a holy nation (goy kadósh), separate and apart from the rest of mankind. It is here that you see the seeds of the kulturkampf that afflicts Israel and the Jewish people today.

It was the secular Zionists, aided and encouraged by sympathetic Christians, who succeeded in setting up the structure of what was to become the State of Israel. Unbeknownst to these secular Jews, the Zohar, compiled some 1900 years ago by Shimón bar YoHái, had predicted the rise of a sovereign Jewish entity in Israel in the latter part of the sixth millennium (according to the Hebrew calendar). The Jewish State was established in the Hebrew calendar year 5708, the latter part of the sixth millennium - as predicted.

The British, responsible for the development of a Jewish National Home here, later backtracked on their promises because they were interested in oil from the Arabs and because they disliked Jews simply because unlike Arabs, Jews here viewed the British as equals, rather than the superior beings the Arabs pretended the British to be (to their faces, of course). Add to this the element of Jew-hated common to many Brits who were the second raters the Colonial Office did not deem good enough for the Empire of India, and you see why the British sided with Arabs in their administration of this country. They left its borders porous, so that Arabs from Iraq and Syria could crowd the land, building on empty land (or even land owned by the Kéren Kayémet, which bought land specifically for Jewish settlement here). All the while the Colonial Office complained that the country was too small to support massive Jewish in-migration. For years they stalled even the development of an electric company here!!

The British mantra of the land being too small for Jewish in-migration finds its modern counterpart in Arabs screaming that we stole their land (which Temporal repeats like a broke record). While many Arabs fled this country in 1948-49, anticipating an Arab conquest of the country and not wanting to be in the way of a bloody massacre of Jews, few were driven off their land. The vast majority of the villages Jews founded in Judea and Samaria after its liberation from Arab control in 1967 were established in empty land. This village, Ma'alé Levoná, is an example of such a place, serving first as a listening post for the IDF before being opened to civilian settlement in the late 1970's.

When Ma'alé Levoná was established, there was only one Arab village here, Sínjel. Now, there are several, as Arab clans have set up villages the triangle of Shiló, 'Elí and Ma'alé Levoná, attracted by work (building the Jewish villages) and by the opportunity to grow olives.

The real picture of black water towers and satellite dishes rising from nicely built Arab homes which surround mosques in villages and towns all along, Route 60 in Samaria, of vehicle after vehicle with the green and white plates of the "Palestinian" Authority, of neat olive fields tended, the reality I see whenever I travel to Ariel or Jerusalem on business, is very different from the whiny propaganda of the Israel and Jew-haters on this board, Anamika and Temporal. If I had a digital camera, I'd post photos of reality. You can get plenty of stock photos of the "poor Palestinians" from the agitprop machine worshiped so slavishly by so many on this board.

If I look at the Qur'an, I find it very familiar in that about 85% to 90% of it is the Torah and verses from the Tana"kh (along with a number of rabbinical rulings that had developed by the 7th Century) repackaged for Arabs. A Jew and a Moslem can worship in the same structure, and we have far more beliefs in common than we do with Christians, who try to create three gods from the One G-d of Israel.

Anamika, of course, ignores what I've taken pains to point out, that today Islam has been stolen by the Wahhabi rebel cult from the wastes of Nejd in Arabia. Like most propagandists, she cannot bring herself to call the religion of hate that many people consider to be Islam by its proper name, Wahhabism, nor can she deign to admit the theft of Islam by the Wahhabi in the last century. Do see comment #161....

#229
commonsense
April 11, 2008
09:11 AM

THE UNVARNISHED TRUTH

by: Ruvy in Jerusalem

Truth Publishers: Jersusalem, 2008, 785 pp.

#230
Gill
April 11, 2008
09:19 AM

>>>>Anamika, of course, ignores what I've taken pains to point out, that today Islam has been stolen by the Wahhabi rebel cult from the wastes of Nejd in Arabia.<<<<<<

So you are suggesting that Islam become violent and political only after Al-Wahab reformist movement!!! Or you are suggesting that Al-Wahab simply brought in modern political awareness and embedded it to Islam and a way to implement it.

So shouldn't Al-Wahib be compared to lets say Lenin or Mao????

#231
Anamika
April 11, 2008
09:28 AM

Usual garbled mix of fact and fantasy. Provide REAL information: Ella Shohat is a Jew who has written about the Israeli fallacy of how badly Jews were treated by Muslims and how this fallacy developed.

Also, funny how conveniently everyone forgets that its was the Ottoman empire (ie Muslims) that accepted massive numbers of Jews after the Christians expelled them from Spain. But hey, why use facts when god has promised all sorts of idiocy.

Meanwhile, something on the how well Israel treats the Palestinians:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/28/world/middleeast/28road.html?_r=1&ref=middleeast&oref=slogin

You dont need digital cameras to post pictures. Here go some:
http://www.israelimperialnews.org/wint06.htm

And that is an ISRAELI source! While at it check out the rest of www.israelimperialnews.org too


#232
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 11, 2008
10:06 AM

As I suggested earlier, el-Wahhab and his followers are more like the Mormon's hijacking the papacy. But I also pointed out in comment 161 that Islam can be violent and need not be.

In its conquest of India, Islam was very violent as Hindus were viewed as idol worshipers. So, in addition to the "conquest" with its rape and murder, there was for a long time religious persecution.

There is an uneasy relationship between Hindus and Moslems in India because of this, and there is persecution of Hindus in Bangladesh because of this - but others on the board have far more understanding of all this than I could pretend to.

It appears that for a time there was peace between Hindus and Moslems in India, but I would suggest the intolerant ideas of the Wahhabi (from what I understand, the Deoband Moslems worship according to a Sufi style rite, but have Wahhabi beliefs - hence the Taliban) will, if spread in madrassas in India, provoke a massive pogrom against Moslems.

Put very simply, in order to prevent a massive pogrom against Moslems by Hindus in India, you need to destroy the root of the cancer turning Islam violent again - the Saudi money machine.

#233
Gill
April 11, 2008
10:41 AM

>>It appears that for a time there was peace between Hindus and Moslems in India<<<<

Now this is a fallacy also!!! What was this peacefu period???

>>>in order to prevent a massive pogrom against Moslems by Hindus in India, you need to destroy the root of the cancer turning Islam violent again - the Saudi money machine.<<<<

No it is not Saudi Money. Indian muslim Waqf is the richest in the muslim world and one of the biggest real estate owners in India. This money plays a major role in Politics and other insitutions.

Problem is like pointed by Man Singh and Morris. It is the teachings and written words. On religious front there has been no move for assimilation by Islamic institutions in India. They still believe India to be Dar-ul-islam. And it has been unlawfully taken away from them.

More over Indian Muslim society is the most reachable in the muslim world. But that hasn't changed anything at the grass roots. Powerful Islamic insitutions of India are still propagating and implementing medival mindsets and realities in the minds of its society. And successfully propagating concept of Dar-ul-Islam with acceptance.

Change can only come from within Muslim society only. Dhimmis can try bending over again and again but it has and will change nothing. Only is creating more chaos and eventually only make Hindus more militant and rigid.

#234
Man Singh
URL
April 11, 2008
12:03 PM

Bhai temp,

Again you are missing a point here in your second statement. There is missing link between 1 & 2 and correction in 2.

"1: a bhains was stolen by A from B 5000 years back"

1a : C loots the bhains from thief A

"2: B steals it from C TODAY citing his god"

has to beard :

2: B takes its Bhains back from gang of dacoits `C'

Is there any thing wrong in claiming your items looted by dacoits or their decendents if opportunity arises in?

#235
temporal
URL
April 11, 2008
12:18 PM

mansingh

you are getting better by the day...today you have discovered the missing link

one of these days you will discover more truths

let us see the other murderer's disciple (the confessed follower of murderer kahane bin osama bin bush) discover the links

;)

#236
temporal
URL
April 11, 2008
12:20 PM

mansingh

you are getting better by the day...today you have discovered the missing link

one of these days you will discover more truths

let us see the other murderer's disciple (the confessed follower of murderer kahane bin osama bin bush) discover the links

;)

#237
Man Singh
URL
April 11, 2008
12:34 PM

Ruvy # 223

You are doing the same mistake in understanding Hinduism what people like Anamika do in equating Anti jehadi to Anti Muslim.

Hindus in last 10,000 years of known history never attacked any country. They gave shelter to all percecuted races on earth including jews, Syrian Christians , Paarsis, Tibetans in modern times.

Yes some social ills crept in our society during last 1000 years of slavery which is pretty natural. In these 1000 years landlords appointed by foreign Muslim/British invaders in association with some greedy priests exploited weaker sections of society and Indian Dharma has nothing to do with it.

Rather it is Adharma which you refer in your observation when you feel Indians are behaving n barbarian way with fellow Indians.

Yes Isolated incidences of such Adharma are still seen happening. But we are fighting tooth and nail with this adharma spread by traitors who associated with foreign invaders and became landlords.

Go deeply any cast conflict, you will find land dispute behind it colored with cast. We are continuously fighting with adharma and within last 50 years Indian society have seen significant changed in status of thsoe opressed sectiuons of society in spite of all efforts by feudals and landlords who associated with invaders once upon a time. The fact that a dalit woman is chief minister of most populated state of India is an evidence that influence of those tarito adharmi landlords is finishing and Dharma is prevailing.

Therefore you are fundamentally wrong by putting crimes of these traitor landlords against humanity on humble Indian society. Please correct yourself and not for the future that 10 fundamental principles of Dharma are universal human values all religions of world follow and we Indians never divided humanity based on `way of worship' we always judged humans beased on their character and behaviour nothing less.

That was the reason why Guru Gobind Singh Ji maharaj was able to maintain freindship with Sufi saints while fighting with tyrant Aurangjeb in spite of both(Sufis and Aurangjeb) being Muslims.

10 principles of Dharma are :

1. Daya (Kindness/non violence)
2. Dhriti(Tolerance/patience)
3. Khsama(forgiveness)
4. Shoch ( Internal and external Purity)
5. Asteya ( no stealing)
6. Aparigrah/Daan ( non accumilating wealth/Charity)
7. Satya (Truth)
8. Akrodha ( no anger)
9. Vidya (Knowledge)
10 Indriya Nigrah (discipline of sense and mind)

Perhaps you will be surpised to know that Indian though do not insist you to be believer in God at all.

If you are having these 10 characterstics, you are respectable person no matter you worship or not or whatever way you worship?

Anamika # It were Muslims who attacked Europe and captured Spain. Christians carred out crusades to liberate Spain from clutches of Muslims. I am suspect if you have really read biography of Mo and some of his threatening letters avalaible even today.

I am pretty sure you might have studied how Arabs send expeditions to spread islam with huge Armies. India was attacked many times even before 711 attack by Mohammed Bin qassim with 50,000 strong troops.

Punjab repelled them though and Arabs never attacked for 300 years till mahmud of gajni a Turk from central asia strated creatying troble again.

Please let me know if you need some of Mo's letters how he threatened contemporary princes either to convert of perish.

Compare his approach with Budha and see the diference. With due respect I request you please to go through both side of story. Story narrated by victims and story narrated by culprits.

being a simple villager, I will never buy the story by attacking dacoits or their associates. I'll trust Victims story more then that of dacoits because victims are innocents and dacoits are tyrants.

#238
commonsense
April 11, 2008
01:47 PM

when one cuts thru all the background noise generated by our friend ruvvy, the bottomline is this: to believe that god promises anything to anyone that is beyond the reach of human laws, logic and reason is beyond chutiapa. I mean one can believe anything one wants, as most who are deluded do so, but please don't be surprised when people treat you as an inhabitant of cuckooland. (as it happens "In Cuckooland" is the title of a book about Kahane, by an Israeli writer or as our friend Ruvy would have it, a "traitor", not really a real Jew).

Please feel free to inhabit your fantasyland of god as a real estate agent...just as others are free to deal with the real world as opposed to divine causation...

#239
Man Singh
URL
April 11, 2008
02:56 PM

temp # 236

temp Bhai, A Scholar of Aadi Shankaracharya level has written that `chandaalo api mam Guru'

which means even lowest of the low intellectual level person a chandal also has something to learn from by a wise person.

I belive in the same theory. Yes I have no hesitation in accepting any reasonable argument from any quarter.

Hope rest of teh world also will have same holistic attitude and ...

However you never shared your opinion if a `loot ka maal' changed hands before reaching to its real owner, does it lower the legitimacy of real owner anyway?

I feel no. Justice should prevail. Dacoits should be put behind bars. Victims should be duly compensated as done with aboriginal communities of new Zealand, Ausralia and Ccanada to some extent.

If there are some elements who still are adamant in supporting and glorifying the tyrant dacoits should be done justice as well. You know what should be done to associates of dacoits Bhai temp?

#240
Morris
April 11, 2008
03:18 PM

Man Singh
I am not sure what is going on about this bhains. But any one who has a possession of bhains for 1000 years is defacto owner no matter how he aquired it. I am not a lawyer but that I think how it is.

So if your bhains is stolen claim it or fight for it as soon as you can. That is why I think Sadat was a smart man. He got his bhains(Sinai peninsula) back right away. This is why I said Palestanians are not very smart. They are prolonging this issue too long. Longer they wait less they are likely to get.

#241
Morris
April 11, 2008
03:30 PM

Man Singh
I am not sure what is going on about this bhains business. But any one who has a possession of bhains for 1000 years is a defacto owner no matter how he aquired it. I am not a lawyer but that I think how it is.

So if your bhains is stolen claim it or fight for it as soon as you can. That is why I think Sadat was a smart man. He got his bhains(Sinai peninsula) back right away. I said Palestanians are not very smart. They are prolonging this issue too long. Longer they wait less they are likely to get. Might has a tenedncy of becoming right if you wait too long. That is not to say that it is right. But that is how it is.

#242
temporal
URL
April 11, 2008
03:59 PM

Morris:

appreciate your input:)

now examine the other angle

where B steals it from C (NOT from A)


:)

#243
Gill
April 11, 2008
04:10 PM

>>>That is why I think Sadat was a smart man. He got his bhains(Sinai peninsula) back right away. This is why I said Palestanians are not very smart<<<<<

Or the fact is that even before Isreal too they were never appreciated by other Arabs states. Even today also no other Arab state wants to accept them even as refugees. Makes one wonder what really happened to Muslim brotherhood!!! Why they all refuse to accept their own brothers???

#244
Gill
April 11, 2008
04:40 PM

on this stealing thing.

what if the thief himself becomes the police, judge and executioner. And stamp the stolen goods with his new stamp of legitimacy. And than take the person from whom he stole under his clout and legitimate and encourage him to steal others around him and gives the legitimacy stamp which he uses to stamp all the stolen goods legal as reward.......and on and on......those who don't come under the original thief s clout keep loosing more and more........until when it has come to bare minimum - "Survival"... now its survival and now these potential preys counters them.

But when the "legitimate" thieves are countered they show the "new legitimacy stamp" acquired from the original "thief" way back in the cycle!!!!! And claim yes goods were stolen but now they are theirs because it is sanctioned and legalized by the "original legitimate thief long time back. Now the "long time prey" has a right to his goods back or he got to find new ways of survival and that too under the threat of being robbed again because the "legal stamp from the original thief" still exists. What should the prey do??? survive in "fear" ??? or create a "illusion" around the no thief will not use his "legitimacy" to "steal" again????

#245
temporal
URL
April 11, 2008
04:45 PM

nice try gill

going round
and
round
and round

like an animal
chasing own tail

;)

now back to basics A, B, and C

:)

#246
Gill
April 11, 2008
04:59 PM

Temp

Isn't thats exactly whats going on here!!!

or maybe i stepped over your toe... did your job... vicious loops!!!!!

#247
temporal
URL
April 11, 2008
05:04 PM

not to repeat the first three words (#245) say it:)

#248
Morris
April 11, 2008
05:45 PM

temporal #242
I guess the same principle applies. C must claim it or fight for it as soon as he can or "Might has a tenedncy of becoming right if you wait too long" ultimately C looses it. That is the reality of the world. No one has perpetual claim on anything.

All this discussion is meaningless. Israel is there and they can rightfully claim to be there having been recognized by UN. My concern is that this claim is widening and may include additional palstinian land. Thanks to Sadat Sinai is safely with Egypt. Imagine, he was murdered for that.

#249
temporal
URL
April 11, 2008
05:52 PM

morris:

why be selective about the UN?

;)

#250
Morris
April 11, 2008
06:39 PM

Temporal
I am not selective. I mention UN to add legality as it is recognized internationaly. It need not be mixed up with right or wrong. If you read my comments on A B and C, I am only talking about what is reality. Israel is reality and it is futile to deny it.

#251
temporal
URL
April 11, 2008
07:05 PM

morris:

my apologies

should have elaborated

khair

when i mentioned about being selective re: the UN i meant the UN ALSO had directives and resolutions on the plight of displaced palestinians, the right to return, fundamental human rights denied etc etc that can be applied to those under israeli occupation as well as those in the diaspora

#252
Morris
April 11, 2008
08:48 PM

temporal
I agree. unfortunately that too is reality. UN resolutions are selectively enforced/implimented depending upon who is supporting them. Israel itself away more powerful than any arab country and furthermore it has a backing of the most powerful country in the world. And as I said might has a tendency of becoming right slowly, if not immediately.

This why I keep praising Sadat's wisdom. Weaker people must learn to play smart. You must assess your chances of success before insisting that you are right. If big bullies are not going to listen to you then you are going nowhere. Don't kid youself the world is not just and fair. But we have no choice but to do our best.

#253
temporal
URL
April 11, 2008
09:12 PM

morris:

But we have no choice but to do our best.

agree with this:)

and our choice includes exposing and fighting injustice everywhere including the hate mongers and occupiers who lurk on the net

***

the fringe israeli voice here insists on justifying his occupation and displacement (and even annihilation) of an entire group of fellow semites based on what his god told him

he conveniently choses to repeatedly overlook that i and others are not after displacing him and his misguided ilk

we want him and all israelis to live there in peace....with dignity, justice and guaranteed fundamental human rights as enshrined in the UN resolution...AND we want the same rights and privileges for the palestinians in occupied palestine and in the diaspora

he and his ilk would not allow that for the fellow palestinians...instead what he and his government is resorting to for the past 60 years is what hitler did to the jews...that is why any comparison of israelis with nazis irks them

#254
commonsense
April 11, 2008
10:08 PM

Gill:

"Makes one wonder what really happened to Muslim brotherhood!!! Why they all refuse to accept their own brothers???"

Makes me wonder why you don't see that your phobia undercuts your own argument. Like any community, muslims too are divided across class, ethnic, power, access to economic resources etc. lines. Only deluded thekedaars of "the Muslim brotherhood" and folks like you like to play up on this fear and convert it into a phobia, are surprised when this does not pan out in reality. Ironically, the Mullah Omars and folks like you are playing the same game, albeit with different intentions in mind. Both you and the jehadis are conjuring up this fantasy of the muslim brotherhood whose members are totally in synch with each other. Even a cursory look at history and contemporary realities indicate otherwise. When it comes to competing over power and resources, Muslims or any other religious communities will not hesitate to kill each other, denigrate each other, regardless of the efforts of the various thekedaars to insist on notions of "brotherhood", "bhaichara", "imagined community" etc. Hence you are surprised and left wondering, because you refuse to go beyond the ideological blinders and phobia that you have trapped yourself in. You surely are insulting your own intelligence when you insist that there is a foolproof "muslim brotherhood" and then simultaneously ask "makes one wonder what happened to the muslim brotherhood". Reject your phobia, look at the real world of politics with your brains not ideology, and you will surely cease to wonder..

#255
commonsense
April 11, 2008
10:11 PM

Gill:

""what if the thief himself becomes the police, judge and executioner. And stamp the stolen goods with his new stamp of legitimacy. And than take the person from whom he stole under his clout and legitimate and encourage him to steal others around him and gives the legitimacy stamp which he uses to stamp all the stolen goods legal as reward""

a faithful rendition of the views of our friend ruvvy and rabbi kahane etc. Of course they want to steal more, and murder more and stamp the new stolen lands too with their own legitimacy. Glad you get the gist of the argument, without realizing it though...

#256
commonsense
April 11, 2008
10:21 PM

Morris:

""But any one who has a possession of bhains for 1000 years is defacto owner no matter how he aquired it. I am not a lawyer but that I think how it is.""

The crux of the matter. Then folks like Ruvy introduce divine real estate dealers and what not because that is the only way they can try to get around logic and history, and hope that nobody will notice.

True Morris, sometimes, might does make right. But we, have only the keyboard at our disposal and we must expose all the racists, bigots, occupiers, etc. etc. and reject any crackpot appeal to divine interventions and promises. Our efforts may not accomplish much, but this is the least we can do, even if that's the only thing we can do. We are after all, not professional politicians nor members of shady organizations, but simply speaking up as concerned world citizens and desis.

#257
Morris
April 11, 2008
11:04 PM

temporal and commonsense
You see there is one more point we all got to be aware. Justice often is like beauty. It is in beholders' eyes. Ruvy is claiming a piece of land because it was given to them by God. That is very easy to refute. And any reasonable person would agree that the argument is silly. But so many other things are not that clear. Both paries feel very strongly that they are right. This is why we have court system. Unfortunately no such system exist in the international matter. What clearly looks wrong is all I talk about. And that is why I mention illegal settlements in the west bank and perhaps the fence, beyond that it is murky water. I do agree that occupation of west bank is illegal but hopefully that would resolve by negotiation.

#258
commonsense
April 12, 2008
01:00 AM

Morris,

I totally agree with you!

However, just because justice is never served in a judicious manner, does not stop me from screaming and howling at folks like Ruvy. It may not accomplish much, but it does to some extent contribute, I think perhaps vaingloriously and pompously, to some rational, sane discussion, as opposed to chauvinism, sectarianism. Not being a professional politician, and not having vested interest in any thekedaari, I do think that I cannot shirk my responsibility in contributing, however minimally, to some reasonably reasoned discourse.

For the record, I have no special interest in the Palestinian-Israeli or any other conflict in particular. I do have a special interest in trying to make sense of all situations that result in the violation of human rights, gross social injustice. That is, I sincerely do not have any particular axe to grind, except the axe of a basic secular humanity that does not denigrate religion but tries to cut it down to size such the debates on public policy are not hijacked by divine actors and actresses. The fact that religious nuts will do precisely this does not bother me too much because for each religious nut there are other religious people who understand that religion has a role, but not the role that folks like Ruvy envision.

Sorry for being so long winded (my trademark!) but I am conscious of the fact that many folks on DC are constantly trying to figure out precisely which sectarian axe I might be trying to grind under the "disguise" secular humanism and basic commonsense.

#259
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 12, 2008
03:41 PM

Man Singh,

I would simply suggest that those who practice Dharma do not kill, etc., violating the ten rules you listed in your comment.

Just as all Jews do not follow the commandments, and all Christians do not follow their faith, not all Hindus follow it either - I guess the term you used was Adharma.

Shavua Tov, (have a good week)
Reuven

#260
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 12, 2008
04:05 PM

To those who may care to read this;

Howling at me that you can refute my arguments concerning G-d's gift of the Land to Israel is a useless exercise. I do not put them down in the interest of convincing you of anything. I put them down because they are TRUTH. You can accept what I say or reject it, you can disagree or agree. You can jump up and down like mad monkeys for all I care. That does not subtract from the truth of my words, and in the fullness of time, you will be forced to recognize that - or you will not live at all.

This will not be because of anything I say or do. I am rather irrelevant to the whole thing, except that I am laying facts in front of you. In other words, I am rather meaningless in the whole schema of things. But conditions of human survival will change at the Hand of G-d. Whether you believe this or not is also irrelevant. At the appropriate time, such evidence will be before you that either you will go insane, or you will believe. This will be part of the Redemption.

If you follow Dharma, i.e., you are a Hindu in your beliefs, just follow the rules that Man Singh lays out above, and recognize that, yes there is a G-d. That will keep you your sanity. Don't curse us, and don't bring a curse upon your own head.

I would suggest to Moslems that they distance themselves as far from violence as they can and view "jihad" as an internal struggle for self-improvement. Thus you will not curse Israel and not be cursed yourselves.

If you curse me, call me the disciple of a murderer, etc., all you do is bring a curse upon your own head. That's between you and G-d, and it isn't my problem.

It's yours.

And thus, I bid you all a good week.

#261
Morris
April 12, 2008
04:34 PM

Ruvy, With all due respect to your belief
My humble opinion

If someone tells us that my God asked me attack Iraq, how can we refute it?

If someone tells us that my God has aske me to blow up the non believers, how can we refute it?

If someone say it is God's wish that Israel should be wiped out of the world map, how can we refute it? and

If you tell us that my God has endowed me with this piece of land, how can I refute it?

But in each one of this case I have a right and perhaps even a duty to say I do not believe it and I disagree without any reservation.

It is my sincere belief no less sincere than yours that God has given no such commands to anyone.

Peace be with all us.

#262
temporal
URL
April 12, 2008
04:42 PM

for morris and others interested in history:

The fundaments of Zionism were laid down by Moses Hess....one of Germany's earliest renowned socialists and Karl Marx's mentor....considered by Zionists as the first Zionist and wrote the book "Rome and Jerusalem" (1862). In the book Hess emphasises the Jewish "race" as superior and chosen...Theodor Hertzl is usually considered to be Zionism's founder. Later on, he referred to Hess's book as the one that says everything worth saying about Zionism. Hertzl presented a plan for the colonisation of Palestine in his book "The Jewish State" (1896), which was affirmed at the first Zionist congress in 1897.

Ben Gurion, one of the Party members and Israel´s founder, came to Palestine at the beginning of the twentieth century. He considered himself a Bolshevik and was in favour of the dictatorship of the proletariat in all countries, except Palestine where he favoured the dictatorship of Zionism. What, then, are the practical politics of Zionism?

The Zionist slogan 'A land without people to a people without land' has engineered the Jewish colonisation of Palestine for a hundred years or more. To realise its goal, a 'Jewish State', there is a need for a substantial majority of Jews, hence the ethnic cleansing of the people who originally lived there, a so-called lebensraum. Israel is, therefore, essentially a racist state. Jewish superiority is maintained by a system of apartheid, inherent in laws, administration and religion. To this day, Israel lacks a constitution and official borders, entirely in keeping with Zionism's demand for more land.

Of what was originally Palestine, 85 percent has been stolen or annexed, and the rest is occupied. In 1948, 800,000 Palestinians were driven off or fled the country, and are denied their right to return, a right laid down by the UN. The Palestinians call this the catastrophe - Al Nakba. The West Bank consists of walled-in enclaves which are controlled by hundreds of checkpoints and Gaza has become the largest open-air prison/ghetto in the world, blockaded and suffering starvation. About 10,000 Palestinians, many of them children, are in Israeli jails without trials or judgements. Israel's dealings with the Palestinians amount to what is formally named genocide.By Lasse Wilhelmson in Stockholm

#263
Anamika
April 12, 2008
04:48 PM

Morris: Amen! :-)

#264
commonsense
April 12, 2008
05:00 PM

Ruvvy:

"Howling at me that you can refute my arguments concerning G-d's gift of the Land to Israel is a useless exercise. I do not put them down in the interest of convincing you of anything. I put them down because they are TRUTH. You can accept what I say or reject it, you can disagree or agree. You can jump up and down like mad monkeys for all I care. That does not subtract from the truth of my words, and in the fullness of time, you will be forced to recognize that - or you will not live at all.""

The TRUTH??!! To call our friend Ruvy deluded or plain insane would of course be giving a bad name to the deluded and the insane...

#265
commonsense
April 12, 2008
05:06 PM

re: Ruvy and his G-d: cliches are unnecessarily underrated. For instance, the one about "when arguing with an idiot, make sure he isn't doing the same", cliched though it might be, fits this situation tragi-comedy to a T.

(Editors, this is not a personal attack on our friend...i could do worse, much worse, but what the FISH, I am a reformed person...besides, away from the brew for a while)

#266
commonsense
April 12, 2008
05:14 PM

R:

"That does not subtract from the truth of my words, and in the fullness of time, you will be forced to recognize that - or you will not live at all.""

Not sure which is worse/better:

1. "forced to recognize" Ruvy's truth (Uzi infused force?)

2. "not live at all" (Uzis yet again, or divine lightning and thunder this time?)

Are there any signs that will indicate the approaching, apocalyptic "fullness of time"?

Beating a dead deluded horse no doubt, but man, this person is something else!!! "No reply" as in Jawaab Nahin!!

#267
commonsense
April 12, 2008
05:18 PM

R:

""If you curse me, call me the disciple of a murderer, etc., all you do is bring a curse upon your own head.""

Head? What head? If I had a head, would I be seriously arguing with you?

#268
commonsense
April 12, 2008
05:22 PM

oh shit!! my God just rang me up and confirmed that Ruvy is right and has the TRUTH. Sorry old boy! I owe you one

#269
commonsense
April 12, 2008
05:27 PM

R:

""At the appropriate time, such evidence will be before you that either you will go insane, or you will believe. This will be part of the Redemption.""

So, will I have a choice between choosing to believe or insanity? And why can't I follow your example and chose both? Say what? Because I am not one of the chosen people? But what about after the redemption? Can I then simultaneously be a believer and insane, just like you?

#270
Man Singh
URL
April 12, 2008
06:42 PM

Morris and temp,

does our commonsense equated the stealing thieves and victims getting their stolen things back no matter how much time later.

Laws of today are to settle short time conflicts and not civilisational conflicts.

Let's be clear that `A' was fundamentally wrong to steal a Bhains from `B'

`C' was equally wrong in stealing it from `A'

`B' is the only victim here and demands justice.

`A; and `C' are both thieves and should be brought to justice.

Is there any confusion in identifying the thieves and victims here. Why thieves and their associates either should surrender that stolen Bhains to `B' voluntarily or face the justice.

If justice fails then `B' has all legitimate right to do everything within his reach to get back his belongings.

#271
Anamika
April 13, 2008
05:08 AM

Except it was B who stole from C.

As stated earlier, back to the basics!

#272
Morris
April 13, 2008
02:43 PM

Man Singh #270

Civilizational conflicts do not necessarily get settled. They just get evolved and turn into new problems. That is reality.

Justice is like beauty. It is in beholder's eyes. Quite often we do not agree whether B is victim or C is victim.

Even if we do agree, in the international world, there is no way to rctify the wrong.

Wrong or right, MIGHT prevails and over a long period of time makes no difference. Am I saying might is right? Yes, in a way. B can aquire strength and take that bhains away from C. Keep in mind these arbitrary actions create new problems.

In my opinion we should learn from history but to try to right all wrongs of history is a different ball game altogether. Some wrongs cannot be altered. We must be mindful of the present condition and people involved. Often the best we could do is probably what Australia did. Apologized to aboriginal people.

Above all, Man Singh whoever led you to believe that the world is fair and just. We do hang sometimes wrong people and for them truth does not necessarily prevail. And it is no different in international conflict. And that is also reality, my friend.

#273
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 13, 2008
02:59 PM

Can't decide http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sShMA85pv8M">Who's on First?, guys?

Maybe this video will help you all....

#274
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 13, 2008
03:12 PM

Let's try this again, folks. Can't decide Who's On First?. Watch this and maybe you can figure it out - well, it's as easy as A, B and C.

Have fun.

#275
temporal
URL
April 13, 2008
03:21 PM
#276
commonsense
April 13, 2008
04:46 PM

excellent points Morris...

#277
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 13, 2008
04:50 PM

Your trash comments get repetitious, but if you won't quit posting lies, then I will not quit posting truth, Temporal.

Jerusalem is the eternal capital of the Children of Israel and it will remain so, no matter how traitorous the pigs in the "Israeli" government are, no matter much Arabs try to scream "Palestine" or "genocide", and no matter how arrogant American Jews like Eric Yoffie or traitors like Uri Avneri or Shim'on Tzabar stick the knife of betrayal in the backs of their own people. G-d will make His bill of judgment on such filth.

But the big point, the point that liars posters of untruth like you miss consistently, is that the same people who have been exploiting Indians and the rest of the world, are our enemies also. That bunch is the American oil and banking establishment. You can thank them for such pollution and smog you have in Indian and Pakistani cities, as well as for the continuing terror of the Wahhabi. Were it not for the the American banking and oil establishment, Arabia would not be a hotbed of Arab terror.

#278
commonsense
April 13, 2008
05:06 PM

Ruvy:

"That does not subtract from the truth of my words, and in the fullness of time, you will be forced to recognize that - or you will not live at all."

" At the appropriate time, such evidence will be before you that either you will go insane, or you will believe. This will be part of the Redemption."

from following non-false prophets to prophesy itself...any more divine revelations in store for us?

#279
temporal
URL
April 13, 2008
05:30 PM

t: O God
G: leave him alone my child
t: you know the Truth, why don't you strike him with Truth?
G: you cannot suggest, you can only pray to me and hope I hear it
t: why does he insist on disrobing his intellect in public
G: go, go write another poem

#280
commonsense
April 13, 2008
07:40 PM

if only our friend knew how ridiculous he sounds, he might desist from ever writing anything...but then again...

#281
Morris
April 13, 2008
09:04 PM

Thanks CS
Now let us end this.

#282
Anamika
April 13, 2008
09:17 PM

Morris: Islamophobic logic gets repeated on this board every few weeks. Unfortunately. Partly because of the people who speak to/or hear god.

#283
Man Singh
URL
April 14, 2008
01:00 PM

Anamika # 271

Getting back my own belongings does not make is `stealing' ? It is justice don to `B' and `A' and `C' are expected to apologise for the `stealing' (`A') or keeping loot ka maal (`C').

I am surprised to see how even educated people are not ready to sympathise with victim and seems to be siding with culprits.

Morris # 272

I agree with you. Yes historical wrongs can be changed in rights. Definitely `dacoits and their decendents should be given a chance to settle down in civil society and it is not practical in many cases to return back the loot ka maal being enjoyed by decendents of dacoits.

To settle for a compromise :

1. Dacoits and their decendents should apologise for looting, keeping and enjoying loot ka maal from very people with whom they plan to settle for their future.

2. They should return loot ka maal wherever possible , Government should compensate if it return is not practical. Or usually villagers are too kind to forgive and forget voluntarily.

3. Most imporatant part is dacoits and/or their decenedents should promise not to get involved in looting type of activities and will a civil life along with their fellow villagers.

Australia as you mentioned is best example. That's how historical disputes are settled.

Famous Ocean Churning store in ancinet Sanskrit literature is a lesson for creative partnership berween Devtas and Asuras. They worked hard togather investigated the ocean and enjoyed many gems out of createrpartnership.

But if people try to supress the `victims' only to make `dacoits' not getting offended, formnula will never work and one day or the other `victims' will bust out their anger.

#284
Anamika
April 14, 2008
01:05 PM

"But if people try to supress the `victims' only to make `dacoits' not getting offended, formnula will never work and one day or the other `victims' will bust out their anger."

Yes, thats when the Uzi-toting dacoits call the victims "terrorists."

#285
bd
URL
April 14, 2008
02:04 PM

M-16, Anamika.

#286
bd
URL
April 14, 2008
02:10 PM

lol, sorry, hit enter too soo, Anamika, I meant to say, M16 is now the standard assault rifle of the IDF.. :)

#287
temporal
URL
April 14, 2008
05:13 PM

beady:

whether it is M16, Uzi or uranium tipped cluster bombs or through economic strangulation, ghettoisation or bantustisation - the question remains - in what way is a single civilian palestinian death justifiable on divine grounds?

and if it is unjustifiable

why should they not be exposed on every available fora?

(yes, yes there are other problems in the world...but one at a time;)

haiN aur bhee ghum zamanay maiN mohabbat ke siwa..

#288
bd
URL
April 14, 2008
05:29 PM

you answered the question yourself, T. the justification is given by God himself. And when that is the case, what makes you think that exposure on fora like this will change their minds?

#289
temporal
URL
April 14, 2008
06:34 PM

no

i never said anything about changing their mind;)

osamas, omars, bushs, kahanes are beyond logic and reason

BUT

to repeat:

why should they not be exposed on every available fora?

:)

#290
Man Singh
URL
April 14, 2008
06:46 PM

Anamika #284

is it?

Were those who bombed the plane in to building on 9/11 were victims?

was kafil a well educated Ph D engineer working in UK who smashed gas filled car in to glasgo airport was a Victim of something?

Were taliban who bombed Budha's statues were victims

Were Kashmiri terrorists who kicked out almost all Hindus out of their hometowns are Victims and Hindus as culprit?

Are palestenians attacking at a secular democracy with independent judicial system Isreali civilisans 1000 times in a year by Missiles are victims?

Were 27 youth arrested in canada last year planning n being trained to bomb its parliament and kill their own prime Minister were `victims' being called terrorists?

Were Those who bombed trains in Mumbai n killed 450 innocent people were `victims' being branded as terrorists?

Were Malaysian infilterators to Thailand forcing thais out of its southern province are `victims' being branded as `terrorists'

were those who almost bombed Indian Parliamanet were `victims' being branded as terrorists?

Are southern phillipine fighters in Mindanao province are `victims' being branded as `terrorists'

Are naxalites in Jharkhand, Chhattisgarh, Andhra etc are engaged in blocking developement and killing innocent people are `victims' being branded as terrorists?

Truth is that agressors and opressors have become habitual of sucking the blood of weak and poor. Thanks to the technology , democracy and human rights, `victims' has strated claiming their looted belongings back. Those who have tasted the blood for many years are finding it hard to return the belongings to their legitimate owners and hence are trying to `demonise' the `owners' using all political economic and military might togather. When lies spread by these opressors are getting exposed one after the another, they are feeling insecured and rest less.

Times are changing friends. days aof landlordism feidalism imerilaism and communism are gone.

Humanity is uniting with universal human values as its babis where attempts will be made to ensure justice to everybody.

people with opressive mindset have to change their ways. Those whose religion instructs them to go around the globe and capture whole land in the name of God will never suceed. Those whose religious books are teachings to convert whole earth to their faith and eliminate rest of religions stand exposed today and are bound to fail.

Mutual respect and `live and let live' is slogan of the day. Those who hate rest of humanity and whose love is confined to their coreligious brothers' will definietly create havoc to humanity till some `educated' people keep on supporting their ghetto mentality.

Please be careful in siding with violent people.

#291
commonsense
April 14, 2008
08:52 PM

Man Singh:

"Please be careful in siding with violent people."

Thanks! Although you not I, have sided with Kahane and his supporter Ruvvy...

#292
bd
URL
April 15, 2008
01:14 AM

sure, mate, go right ahead

#293
Man Singh
URL
April 15, 2008
10:43 AM

CS#291

Bhai commonsense, who is kahane I don'nt know?

I never supported Ruvy. I simply sided with the fact that looted belongings of Jews should be given back to them.

Looters and their associates addicted to enjoy loot ka maal of others are resorting to violence to grab the same again.

Jews or any other community have regitimate right to do everything within their means to protect their belongings from robbers again.

A robbere eneterd in to my home is violent guy. When I am trying to beat him back, does your commonsense says that i am a violent person or dacoit attacking my home is violent person?

I never expected from you to change the definitions CS bhai. I always observed that you use your commonsense other then when you are not playing Chutiayapa game.

Jews were violently kicked out of their homeland exactly the way kashmiri, Punjabi , Sindhi , Afgan, bengali Hindus have been looted beaten killed converted or kicked out of their motherland by follwers of Violent Jehadi ideology.

yes in few cases while defending themselves from these agressors victims also might have caused some violence in self defence.

It is funny to see you are declaring looted people as violent and keeping silence on dacoits attacking the village.

#294
commonsense
April 15, 2008
11:19 AM

man singh, be happy, don't worry. it's a good sign if you really don't know who kahane is....but you can always google kahane and his kach party

#295
Man Singh
URL
April 15, 2008
12:19 PM

CS #294

I'll do the needful.

I don'nt care for political parties though. I use my commonsense and share my own observations more then making my opinions based on media propaganda and that's why some people find hard to digest others observations not based on media reports.

#296
Guido
April 15, 2008
12:29 PM

Ciao BD,

Excellent piece! Should be required reading for everyone.

According to recent polls I found, trends seem to indicate an overall increase of the phenomena in the US since 9/11. For me personally, it seems to exist only at the fringes, which would indicate that either the polls or my perception is a bit skewed. Probably both.

I found a related article written by a former member of Jemaah Islamiya, an Islamist terrorist group, published in the Wall Street Journal. I think it's the most pragmatic approach to cause and solution than anything I've seen. It's short, but brutally to the point:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110010123

Ciao, Guido

#297
bd
URL
April 15, 2008
01:36 PM

Guido, thanks for the link and the comments, Dr. Hamid does raise good points indeed. As far as CAIR is concerned, well, lets just say that the jury is still out on that organisation for me. One should know which battles to fight and which battles to avoid, the flying imams battle was perhaps one to be definitely avoided. Also, far too many moderate muslims look at CAIR as well with a jaundiced eye.

Anyway, the OIC made an own goal with this report, I am afraid. And guess what? it will keep on making these mistakes over and over again.

#298
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 15, 2008
04:09 PM

Man Singh,

I suggest you read this article at Blogcritics Magazine, Thoughts on Rabbi Meir Kahane, z"l, hy"d, and What I Owe Him. There I wrote,

Ironically, the whole nation of Israel is much like the besieged Jewish community of New York City 40 years ago. All over Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria, you can see the truth written on the walls; Kahana tzadak! "Kahane was right!"

Kahane was right.

But he is dead, and we as Jews, and as Children of Israel, will have to move beyond the vision of Rav Meir Kahane, z"l, hy"d. We will have to do this in order to make of our home here more than just the "first fruit of redemption." The first fruit must be allowed to grow into the Tree of Redemption, the tree that will blossom and bring us out of the evil into which we have fallen and into the sunshine promised us by our Prophets.

We, the Children of Israel, have a role to play in history. We have to arise, reclaim our pride and dignity and play that role without fear in a world that is beset by terror, fear and confusion.


Thus, those here who write mávet l'aravím "death to the Arabs" - are wrong. Our enemies here are not the Arabs, many of whom simply want to live in peace and make a good living. Our enemies are the oil and banking establishment, which has the American government in a stranglehold. In other words, in a sentence, our enemies here, are the same as your enemies: the American administration and its exploitative ways.

Their business partners are the Wahhabi, and they owe the Wahhabi bastards too much money to turn their backs on them. The Wahhabi influence Arabs to turn to terror, and the Americans foot their bill at the gas pump.

It should not be surprising that people writing from the UK, Canada or the US, would have trouble seeing these simple realities.

#299
temporal
URL
April 15, 2008
05:15 PM

G: you again?
t: yes God
G: i will deal with him when he comes before me
t: but he is spreading viscious lies down here
G: why do people listen to lies?
t: hmmmmm....because they want to?
G: i won't send any more prophets
t: can you rain some sense then?
G: go, before i lose patience with you
t: bless yourself, i leave

#300
Gill
April 15, 2008
05:56 PM

CS wrote

>>>>Man Singh:

"Please be careful in siding with violent people."

Thanks! Although you not I, have sided with Kahane and his supporter Ruvvy...<<<<<

Now this is funny over a billion and half muslims in this world are suffering because Man Singh has sided with Kahane.

Can you give us the total terrorists acts committed against innocent worldwide by Jews and by muslims????? Who has killed most "non-believers"???//

It is amazing audacity to call a community a "victim" that is
over 1.4 billion in numbers

Rule over 50 nations (where no believers have no rights)

Does not respect any other faith or religion, gives no rights to minorities
http://www.unitedamericancommittee.org/afteraction_egypt.htm

Have and are killing the most number of people around the world in the name of their religion and prophet

And above all has a well documented history of "victimizing" all
non-believing" communities for over 800 years

But no we should go and blame the jews!!! Why is that because they number only in 10's of millions. And they are no threat because they will not blow up your plane or come with AK's............

despite violence by muslims worldwide ...I wonder where this staunch support and portrayal of them as "victims" is coming from... ...... oh!!! I forgot your ideology believes in the same resorts.... Your prophets did the same Lenin, Stain, Mao etc......... And you must be proud of the events in Nepal where of course a "victim" (as per leftist definition) a convicted serial bomber who of course happens to be a commie is going to be the new PM of Nepal.....

oops sorry if we do not believe in your versions and visions than by default we are all "phobic" !!! Nice!!!!


#301
Gill
April 15, 2008
06:03 PM

CS wrote

>>>>Man Singh:

"Please be careful in siding with violent people."

Thanks! Although you not I, have sided with Kahane and his supporter Ruvvy...<<<<<

Now this is funny over a billion and half muslims in this world are suffering because Man Singh has sided with Kahane. And now they have to resort to terrorism. Damn!!!!

By the way ... Can you give us the total terrorists acts committed against innocent worldwide by Jews and by muslims????? Who has killed most "non-believers"???//

Isn't it amazing audacity to call a community a "victim" that is

over 1.4 billion in numbers

has long history of dominace over the known world of times

At present rule over 50 nations (ironically where no believers have no rights)

Does not respect any other faith or religion, gives no rights to minorities
http://www.unitedamericancommittee.org/afteraction_egypt.htm

Have and are killing the most number of people around the world in the name of their religion and prophet (ofcourse only other are commies in the name of revolution)

And above all has a well documented history of "victimizing" all
non-believer" communities for over 800 years

But no we should go and blame the jews!!! Why is that because they number only in 10's of millions. And they are no threat because they will not blow up your plane or come with AK's............and are a minority everywhere else in the world!!

despite violence by muslims worldwide ...I wonder where this staunch support and portrayal of them as "victims" is coming from... ...... oh!!! I forgot your ideology believes in the same resorts.... Your prophets did the same Lenin, Stain, Mao etc......... And you must be proud of the events in Nepal where of course a "victim" (as per leftist definition) a convicted serial bomber who of course happens to be a commie is going to be the new PM of Nepal.....

oops sorry if we do not believe in your versions and visions than by default we are all "phobic" !!! Nice!!!!

PS by the way who is the victim in Sudan!!!!

#302
Man Singh
URL
April 15, 2008
07:34 PM

Bhai temp # 299

Ridiculing works. yes.
But it exposes the ridiculer also and proves that writer ridiculing his/her opponent is completely exhausted of logic and sensible argument and have resorted to ridiculing.

See with your own eyes how China is settling Haan's in Tibet to eliminate Tibetan culture by force and humanity is keeping quite?

Can people make the judgement who is victim and who is terrorists in this case?

Look at Kashmir. Hindus have been killed converted of kicked out of there. can you make out who is victim and who is culprit?

Look at Southern Thailand how Thais are being killed converted and kicked out from there by infilterators from neighboring Malaysia.

Look at Southern Phillipine how Phillippinoes are being killed converted and kicked out of Mindanao province?

Look at Sudan, Nigeria, Darfur and many other places.

Look at Kosovo how Serbs has been killed converted or kicked out?

can you make out who is victim and who is culprit?

This mentality of convert kill or kick out is being practised. They have become addicted to it.

Any voice of self protection is silenced by `demonising' the `victims' my freind.

I am surprised what makes people to close their eyes and mind and belive the propaganda `demonising' the `victims'.

If you compile the statements of Muslim leaders from around Globe threatening the comlete elimination of Israel openly.

Hamas is openly at war and firing rockets and missiles on Isreal including civilian targets.

Did Isreal ever threatened to eliminate All Muslim or islam from face of the earth. never.

Jehadis openly quote Quran to support their intention to kill or convert whole humanity to islam and capture whole earth. Have Jews or Hindus ever proclaimed any such nonsense?

Israle is a secular country where people of all religions have ful;l religoius freedom like India. Is there a single Muslim country out of 66 where non muslims are allowed to convert Muslims to their faith?

My friends India was never defeated by foreigners. It was defeated by its own people all through the history.

Even today it is not Jehadis or naxalites that are threat to peace in India. It is their local associates who speak on their behalf and work against interests of their own people.

I can'nt belive that a person with average commonsense can not differentiate between `openly threatening attackers' and their `victims'.

If some so called educated people support these `openly threatening attackers' definietley these supporters of them either are mentally bankrupt or have some vested interests.

#303
temporal
URL
April 15, 2008
08:14 PM

mansingh:

i have it from my prophets (ogden nash, mark twain may peace be upon both) you cannot reason with those who claim direct connection with the black hole

#304
Gill
April 15, 2008
08:43 PM

>>>these supporters of them either are mentally bankrupt or have some vested interests.<<<<<<<

Well it is all out in the open!!!!

These Self proclaimed Indian professional human right activists and the Lefties have a deafening silence from the Tibetians.

One wonders !!!what happened to logic they are using here to factiously create victims out of muslims and spilling all these "anti-jew" venom???

Maybe Tibetians are lesser humans than Muslims!!! Or is it because they not as powerful as the muslims This despite the fact that majority of the Tibetian people have been thrown out of their ancestral homeland and are living as refugees. There has been a continous atrocities and systematic eradication of their religion and culture by Chinese "commies" for decades. But none of these self-proclaimed "tekhadars" of "humanity" and "pro-islamism" ever raised a "voice". NO!!!

What happened to "stealing theory" that 'temporal' was so viciously looping around for "muslim cause" in the Tibets case??????

Or is that Tibetians are "non-violent" and "peaceful" as such they deserve no attention. It is the Tibetians who cannot fight their own war and not the muslims. They are over a billion in over 50 nations with well established institutions and resources. And very long history of world rule and domination.

It seems it is literally the "dhimmitude" that is at work over here. All these fancy theories and twisting words around are nothing but a mental "phobia".... It is this "mental phobia" that makes you so drastically and staunchly twist realities around and try to stop even others who wanna call "spade a spade".

It seems that Tibetian blessings and nonviolence is no match for violent jihad and terrorism. I guess that's why despite the violent reality around... you only want everyone to look at the "victimization" of muslims. And at the same time want us to look at the reasoning and legitimacy of Chinese commies brutality.

In one case it is "Dhimmitude" at work and in the other it is the "ideological loyalty".......

#305
commonsense
April 15, 2008
11:27 PM

Gill,

How is the weather today?

#306
Gill
April 15, 2008
11:31 PM

its a nice day today!!!

CS

People still wonder about facts like when Ashoka killed 100,000 he became depressed and went on a transformation that took him to non-violence under Lord Buddha. No one is saying that pre-islamic hindus were superhumans to subsist on "dharma and air", but isn't it safe to assume that these people did not kill pregnant women, take women and children as sex slaves and convert etc in the name of Dharma !!!!!

Where as on the other hand all muslim rulers from Ghazni to Timurlane to Nadirshah to Ahmad shah Abdali did the same when they sacked Indian towns, villages and hindu temples they all offered it as tribute to Allah. Why is that? Why would Muslim God accept and encourage such tributes?????????????? And strangely in 1000 years no muslim institution tried to abolish this evil religious practice???????

And latest recently muslims in Afghanistan destroying ancient Buddha statues in the name of islam and offered it as tribute to Allah???? And once again todays day and age no Islamic institution called this practice in their religion "evil"???? why is that????

Under all these realities your arguments look hollow and hypocritical !!!!! To a common man you seem like you are working for Islamists by proxy!!!! Or if not than it is really your "mental phobia" that stops you to look at the reality.....

#307
commonsense
April 15, 2008
11:39 PM

and the forecast for tomorrow is?

#308
commonsense
April 15, 2008
11:42 PM

Gill Sardar Sahab,

the cure for hydrophobia is two huge injections directly in the belly...for islamophobia...yet to be devised...

#309
Gill
April 16, 2008
12:09 AM

So you have already tried few injectiosn to cure your islamophobia!!!!!

#310
commonsense
April 16, 2008
04:16 AM

sardar sahab,

i'm still coping with hydrophobia...don't you see all the froth and foam around my mouth?

#311
Guido
April 16, 2008
10:04 AM

Ruvy in Jerusalem writes:

"Our enemies here are not the Arabs, many of whom simply want to live in peace and make a good living. Our enemies are the oil and banking establishment, which has the American government in a stranglehold. In other words, in a sentence, our enemies here, are the same as your enemies: the American administration and its exploitative ways."

America the "evil empire" is once again responsible for the world's ills.

Amazing!

Ciao, Guido

#312
commonsense
April 16, 2008
12:05 PM

Guido,

Yes! Not unsurprisingly, our friend Ruvy does not protest the billions of dollars in cash as aid from the US, plus help in kind...

#313
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 16, 2008
12:06 PM

When I was in law school many years ago I learned that if you have facts on your side, cite the facts; if you have law on your side, cite the law; if you have neither, bang the table.

Temporal and "commonsense" have neither law nor facts on their side and have been banging the table for over a two hundred and fifty comments now. In addition, having no logic on their side either, they are making stupid jokes.

At least Gill and Man Singh have facts and logic on their side.

Guido, do yourself the favor of reading the book Century of War, by Engdahl. Former Sheikh Yamani (the fact that he was Jewish got out and he was canned by the Wahhabi), said that Engdahl's account of the way the oil folks worked to triple the price of oil was the closest to the way it happened.

Speaking as someone who once lived in the United States, and who was born and raised there, I'm not spouting hatred for my native land. I know what the hell I'm talking about.

The American oil and banking establishment not only has screwed over Israel and India, it has dried up all the extra cash in the States, ultimately forcing it to become a debtor nation. You do not have to like bitter realities, Guido, but you should do yourself the huge favor of not sticking your head into the sand either. The butt you save from a nasty kick could be your own.

#314
Gill
April 16, 2008
12:13 PM

>>>>>if you have facts on your side, cite the facts<<<<<

Free advice for you commonsense!!!!!! I know it is hard but give it a try!!!

#315
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 16, 2008
12:28 PM

CS,

You're showing your massive ignorance again. First of the facts, and then of my opinion of those facts. Double stupidity in one shot - what did I do to be so honored?

...Ruvy does not protest the billions of dollars in cash as aid from the US, plus help in kind....

First of all, you should use four dots, not three, when attempting to leave a sentence hanging, but you teach physics, not English, so we won't be too hard on you.

Second of all, and more importantly, Israel does not receive cash aid, it gets a credit chit to spend in the US. In short, Israel is forced to spend money on defense in the States. This means, for practical purposes, that our soldiers carry the less reliable M16, as opposed to the more reliable Kalashnikov, which the Galil rifle was based on, have second rate boots made in America, get uniforms that are the wrong color for the climate, etc. In addition, and even more importantly, the country is forced to rely on the States for its military supplies. The ability to supply itself was destroyed by American Jews putting the squeeze on Israelis not to produce their own equipment. That's not called "aid" that's called "imperial control" carried out by "court Jews". If you don't know what a court Jew is, look it up. I expect Americans to have a hard time figuring this out, but Indians?

Nu? Live and learn.

My opinion of all this, is that the Israeli government should turn all this down, and kick out the American "advisors" sent there to squeeze the leash on their balls. In addition, the government should stop Israelis from selling out to American firms, so that the start-ups we set up stay under our control.

In the final analysis, we need you Americans less than you need us - particularly the American court Jews, pricks like Eric Yoffie or Dan Kurtzer.

#316
temporal
URL
April 16, 2008
01:03 PM

for casting aspersions on my conversations with God may you ruvy boil in the deep dungeons of hell for eternity (after your earthly time is up - not before) [NOT for divine-humour impaired!]

;)


...I learned that if you have facts on your side, cite the facts; if you have law on your side, cite the law; if you have neither,.... quote God...(real estate promised us in our book)


;)

#317
temporal
URL
April 16, 2008
01:06 PM

and since ruvy asked for facts

here On State Terrorism

#318
Guido
April 16, 2008
01:40 PM

Ruvy,

You sound like a very smart fellow. Don't take this personally, but you also seem to be quite ungrateful to a country that gave you the opportunity and access to a decent life and good education.

I don't pretend to know you, but I've read enough of your posts to surmise that you are a "victim" on the first order. If you disagree, then go reread your posts with this in mind.

In one sentence your enemies are the "oil and banking establishment"...in the next you claim it's the "American administration and its exploitative ways" Which is it? Not that it matters, because both statements are nothing more than sweeping generalizations.

I don't know squat about banking...or much else for that matter. But I can recognize ingratitude, projection, and victimization when it's spilled so readily into print.

Furthermore, you espouse this in the opening paragraph of your post:

"When I was in law school many years ago I learned that if you have facts on your side, cite the facts; if you have law on your side, cite the law; if you have neither, bang the table."

Then you finish with this:

"Guido, but you should do yourself the huge favor of not sticking your head into the sand either. The butt you save from a nasty kick could be your own."

Who's banging the table counselor?

As for this gem, "In the final analysis, we need you Americans less than you need us - particularly the American court Jews, pricks like Eric Yoffie or Dan Kurtzer." You have a reserved spot at the Daily Kos.

Frankly, I'm happy you left the states. America is better off without you. By the way, the country where you currently hang your hat probably wouldn't exist if it weren't for those god awful American banks and administration.

You take ingratitude to a new level.

Ciao, Guido

#319
Ruvy
April 16, 2008
02:44 PM

Temporal, do you seriously expect me to take the bullshit from the Electronic Intifada as fact?. I didn't fall off the potato truck yesterday, you know.

Guido, Gill, Man Singh, and Morris, this is mostly for you. Temporal is too busy chanting his "Jews are Nazis" taqqiya mantra to even pay attention.

Given that I live here and know something about how politics really works in this country, I understand what the stuffed shirt ideologues and their academic running dogs don't.

The Israeli government is trying to shut down Hamas because they are working with the PLO. The big part of shutting down Hamas is shutting down the goodies they hand out to fellow Arabs - in this case, an orphanage. It is the social services that Hamas performs for fellow Arabs that has given them such a strong base of support. Compared to Hamas, the PLO is a bunch of bought off criminals - all they do is steal money from fellow Arabs. But that analysis does not go far enough.

Actually the differences between Hamas and the PLO need to be approached this way. When you want to fight the enemy, you need to decide if you want to loot first and then kill, or kill first and then loot. That is the way 7th Century mentalities approach war, and that is why the problem arises.

The PLO wants to loot first, and kill after - so they are willing to cut deals with Israeli "power-holders" - "looting" first - then going in for the kill, killing the Israelis later. Hamas wants to kill first and loot later - hence they make no deals. First kill the damned Jews and then take all that is theirs and don't waste time negotiating with them.

So, Hamas looks a lot more honest than does the PLO. They are both equally bloodthirsty. And in order for us to survive in peace with Arabs, their terrorists need to be killed off. Both Hamas and the PLO trace their ideological roots to the Egyptian branch of the Moslem Brotherhood, which itself is under the influence of the Wahhabi. In practical terms, this means that they want to kill anybody who does not embrace their beliefs.

That is a painful reality - but it is a reality nonetheless.

MY problem is not with folks like Hamas. They're straight up in their hostility and desire to kill us off. I can handle that. What I really have trouble with is the corrupt bastards who occupy Government Hill on our side of the war. In addition to being American and Vatican toadies (Peres and Mazuz are the Vatican toadies - the rest of the bunch have been intimidated by the US into being their toadies), they are money hungry thieves and sadists who are unJews - what would translate into Hindu terms as Adharma.

Now, don't believe me for all this. Go to Nakim and its home site ,a site on Martin Schlaff and Sharon and the corrupt deals they did together. Your English is better than that of the writers at the site, so have a bit of patience with these guys.

THESE ARE THE GOOD GUYS HERE.

#320
temporal
URL
April 16, 2008
02:51 PM

ruvy:

so

since you cannot shoot the message

shoot the messenger



typical victim mentality

;)

(google for reuters, afp, and other agency reports yourself)

#321
temporal
URL
April 16, 2008
02:57 PM

An Israeli air strike on the Gaza Strip has reportedly killed 11 Palestinians after a Hamas attack which left three soldiers dead.

Five children are among those killed by the strike near Bureij refugee camp, doctors say, and a Reuters cameraman was killed, apparently by a tank shell.

[google for news source)

#322
Man Singh
URL
April 16, 2008
05:56 PM

Temp # 321

can you please advise how Israel should react to Hamas Attacks?

Should It act like India in which terrorists are bombing its parliament, supreme court orders its government to hang the terrorist and Government of India can'nt dare to execute court orders?

Do u want Isreal also to behave the same spineless and shameless manner?

tell me how to deal with missile attacks coming from refugee camps where almost every human is supporter of Hamas bombing Isreali civilian targets?

I strongly feel that Israel is showing great restraint. If sides might have been opposite ie Jewish terrorists attacking Muslim Government, I am sure Muslim government will show no mercy to jewsish settlement and will bomb the whole refugee camp with a minor provocation.

Rarely a Muslim country out of 66 countries permits Jews to enter on their soil.

No Muslim country permits jews to practise their religion.

Isreal allows Muslims to enetr in to isreal from all over the world.

isreal being a secular democracy allows all religions to practise and propagate.

Please come up with better ideas how isreal should protect itself.

Truth is that Lanld belongs to jews being the faithful children of land. Those who converted to foreign religions after associating with foreign invaders are like children who `ran away' from home after ditching and insulting the parents.

You call me `narrowminded, jaahil, uncivilised villager' or whatever. But I will never give a single penny to my kids if they insult me, ditch me, and associate with my enemies and dacoits who looted my home and other properties.

You call me ganvar. I'll say I am. But I will stick to my principles and based on this principles stand I strongly feel that land belongs to jews and others' claim is sort of goondagardi and nothing more.

Those who are moved by leftist propganda naturally find themselves on the side of looters `demonising' victims.

Think over this `backward' idea from a village boy.

#323
commonsense
April 16, 2008
08:48 PM

Ruvvy:

"First of all, you should use four dots, not three, when attempting to leave a sentence hanging, but you teach physics, not English, so we won't be too hard on you."

Physics to the rescue again....the physics of not lingering long enough on a key....thanks for the advice though....as you can well see....even those who have direct access to God....once in a while....do some good in this....world. Any intimate divine conversations recently?

#324
commonsense
April 16, 2008
08:54 PM

Ruvvy:

""In the final analysis, we need you Americans less than you need us - particularly the American court Jews, pricks like Eric Yoffie or Dan Kurtzer.""

The logical question naturally arises: why would our friend need any help from any non-divine source at all? Is a direct line to the one and only non-false God who is also in the divine real-estate business, not suffient? Any logical answer that does not indulge in absurd tautologies by deploying quotes from the Torah?

#325
commonsense
April 16, 2008
09:00 PM

Ruvvy:

""When I was in law school many years ago I learned that if you have facts on your side, cite the facts; if you have law on your side, cite the law; if you have neither, bang the table.""

For a non-violent guy as a friend, who has many times stated that when he meets a non-Jew he is always "prepared to kill if needs be", I simply don't believe that "bang the table" is an option for him if he has access to neither the facts nor the law. The fact of the matter of course is that when divine writ is the only legitimate source of everything for him, he needs neither facts nor the law. Facts and laws are of course for the secularists to whom the true god does not promise chunks of divine real estate...

#326
commonsense
April 16, 2008
09:05 PM

Ruvvy:

"In the final analysis, we need you Americans less than you need us - particularly the American court Jews, pricks like Eric Yoffie or Dan Kurtzer."

Comforting thought that our friend, his divinely fuelled bravado and M16 (not Uzi)notwitstanding, does have a conscience which is sometimes pricked by the Eric Yoffie and Dan Kurtzer...

#327
commonsense
April 16, 2008
09:09 PM

Ruvvy:

""Temporal, do you seriously expect me to take the bullshit from the Electronic Intifada as fact?. I didn't fall off the potato truck yesterday, you know.""

Yes Temporal! How about quoting God for a change, if indeed you want to be taken seriously? Our friend fell of the potato truck the day before yesterday, not yesterday...

#328
commonsense
April 16, 2008
09:15 PM

Ruvvy:

"the Israeli government should turn all this down, and kick out the American "advisors" sent there to squeeze the leash on their balls. In addition, the government should stop Israelis from selling out to American firms, so that the start-ups we set up stay under our control."

my advice to our friend would be to call on his divine friend to do the needful. or are the claims of a uniquely divine link based neither on facts nor law? how about divine law? how about the fact that the american advisors our friend so despises might be doing God's work whose ultimate outcome is not so evident at the moment?

#329
commonsense
April 16, 2008
09:30 PM

Ruvvy:
""When I was in law school many years ago I learned that if you have facts on your side, cite the facts; if you have law on your side, cite the law; if you have neither, bang the table"" (if no table is in sight, as in cyber-discussions, quote God, but not just any old God...)

To re-cap our friend's deployment of facts and law, here is his response to Morris:

Morris:

"Woh Woh Woh God never gave any body any thing.""

Ruvvy:

"Really, Morris?

This chapter of the Tana"kh says different. Let's set it out for you to read.

Bereshit - Genesis
Chapter 17

1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, HaShem appeared to Abram, and said unto him: 'I am G-d Almighty; walk before Me, and be thou wholehearted.

2 And I will make My covenant between Me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.'

3 And Abram fell on his face; and G-d talked with him, saying:

4 'As for Me, behold, My covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be the father of a multitude of nations.""

After this (and he has been at this for a long, long time) any serious argument with our friend Ruvvy is strictly for those with a macabre sense of humour...ie. folks like me.

#330
Anamika
April 17, 2008
05:21 AM

So far my favourite bit of from Mullah Ruvy: "When I was in law school many years ago I learned that if you have facts on your side, cite the facts; if you have law on your side, cite the law; if you have neither, bang the table."

Preceded by the FACTS which form my favourite bit of idiocy: Really, Morris?

This chapter of the Tana"kh says different. Let's set it out for you to read.

Bereshit - Genesis
Chapter 17

1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, HaShem appeared to Abram, and said unto him: 'I am G-d Almighty; walk before Me, and be thou wholehearted.

2 And I will make My covenant between Me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.'

3 And Abram fell on his face; and G-d talked with him, saying:

4 'As for Me, behold, My covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be the father of a multitude of nations.""

He may have fallen off the potato truck day before yesterday, but hell, what was the shit that he was smoking on it?

#331
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 17, 2008
02:14 PM

I notice that nobody has bothered to answer Man Singh's intelligent question and comments,

can you please advise how Israel should react to Hamas Attacks?

Should It act like India in which terrorists are bombing its parliament, supreme court orders its government to hang the terrorist and Government of India can't dare to execute court orders?

Do you want Israel also to behave the same spineless and shameless manner?

Tell me how to deal with missile attacks coming from refugee camps where almost every human is supporter of Hamas bombing Israeli civilian targets?


Whatsa matter? Cat's got your tongue?

No one has disputed the facts I've laid out - that America applies imperial control using what its government calls "foreign aid". Nobody has disputed the fact that America's "foreign aid" is really a welfare check to defense firms in America.

Whatsa matter? Cat's got your tongue?

Nobody had disputed my analysis of the difference between Hamas and the PLO as being the difference between "kill and loot later", and "loot first and kill later".

Whatsa matter? Cat's got your tongue?

Nobody has even mentioned even looking at the websites detailing Israeli corruption.

Whatsa matter? Afraid you might see truth?

Commonsense, Anamika and Temporal are all disgusting hypocrites afraid of truth - whether it is about their country or anything else.

You all know I'm right and it sticks in your craw to admit that a believing Jew might be smarter than you.

#332
temporal
URL
April 17, 2008
02:52 PM

ana:

this character dances to the music ONLY he can hear - abraham is wasted;)

and now reality check

In the past 24 hours, Israeli Occupation Forces (IOF) have escalated attacks against the Gaza Strip, while they maintained the tightened siege imposed on Strip. On Wednesday evening, 16 April 2008, and in less than half an hour, IOF killed 13 Palestinian civilians, including a journalist, eight children and two brothers, and wounded 32 others, including 17 children and a woman, in Juhor al-Dik village in the central Gaza Strip. They also razed large areas of agricultural land and demolished a number of houses during an incursion into the village. The Palestinian Centre for Human Rights's (PCHR) investigations strongly indicate that IOF used excessive force and willfully targeted journalists in spite of the clear markings on their suits and vehicles. MORE HERE

ps: for osama bin hitlers - "message NOT messenger"

#333
temporal
URL
April 17, 2008
02:56 PM

more on that targeted killing:


According to information obtained by PCHR, and the testimony of Wafa Abu Mezyed, a Reuters soundman who was wounded in the attack, at approximately 17:00 on Wednesday, 16 April 2008, Fadel Subhi Shana'a, 23, a cameraman, and Wafa Younsi Abu Mezyed, 25, a soundman, both working for Reuters, were near al-Ihasn Mosque in Juhor al-Dik village, southeast of Gaza City, documenting crimes committed by IOF in the area. When they finished their work, Shana'a and Abu Mezyed traveled in their sport utility vehicle bearing "TV" and "Press" markings towards Salah al-Din Street to leave the village. Abu Mezyed Sated:

"When we were traveling towards Salah al-Din Street, Israeli military vehicles were nearly 700 meters away from us. We stopped and got out of the vehicle and Shana'a started to [document] the military vehicles. We were wearing bulletproof suits and carrying cameras. When I was driving a number of children away from us, I was surprised by a shell falling near Shana'a who was standing near the vehicle. I saw him falling on the ground and I was wounded by shrapnel to the left hand. Another shell hit the back of the vehicle, and I was wounded by shrapnel to the pelvis and the right foot. I cried and ran towards ambulances to save us."
REST HERE

#334
Chandra
April 17, 2008
03:08 PM

Ruvy; can you please advise how Israel should react to Hamas Attacks?

Chandra: Leave Palestinian territories forever.


Ruvy: Should It act like India in which terrorists are bombing its parliament, supreme court orders its government to hang the terrorist and Government of India can't dare to execute court orders?

Chandra: Yes please. This is better than humiliating palestinian men, women and children on a daily basis. What a heartless people you are.

Ruvy: Do you want Israel also to behave the same spineless and shameless manner

Chandra: What spineless manner? have you bought peace by humiliating the Palestinians on a daily basis?

Ruvy: Tell me how to deal with missile attacks coming from refugee camps where almost every human is supporter of Hamas bombing Israeli civilian targets?

Chandra: Close the refugee camps and leave their land.

I hope you have your answers. You represent a heartless people and if there is God and there is a hell, I am sure you and your people will be appropriately dealt with.

#335
Gill
April 17, 2008
03:15 PM

Temp

You are really a class item!!!! Hypocracy has no limit!!!

Now we got to believe "intifada" and we should take their views as "unbiased" "facts"......

It seems you have already choosen sides!!! And it all boils down to

"Intifida" Vs "Zionism"

#336
Man Singh
URL
April 17, 2008
03:31 PM

Temp Bhai # 232

if civilians `intentionally' harboring the the terrorists, they are no more civilians.

I have seen `civilian women' openly telling on TV that they (terrorists) are our children and who will shelter them other then us?

Please be realistic and don'nt get moved by terrorists propaganda. Please tell how to defend the innocent people.

If hamas is so brave they should fight with Army in open fields and from behind Burqas.

Indians are suffering and getting killed by terrorists every 6 months only because Indian government has no respect for life of Indians. Indians are being treated like cats and dogs by our goverments and nobody bothers even if a million are killed by terrorists.

But Human right groups, communists , Arundhati Royas, Mukul Sinhas, Shaban Azmis, Medha patkars etc become hyperactive the monet a terrorists is killed and strat forming human chains and demand cbi enquiry and what not?

Have any of these human right groups, communists and janvadis ever formed a human chain for victims of terror? Even a single time?

It indicates that these humanrightisis, communists and janvaadis are acting only to defend the rights of `jehadis' and their associates anywhere in the world.

Please tell people what you will do if terrorists are firing missiles on your home using a refugee camp as shield and residents of refugee capms are intentionally allowing themselves to be used as human shileds. Do you feel residents of such refugee camps can be categorisedas `civilians' any more?

It is a simple matter of commonsense Temp Bhai.

Israel never harmed India. jews never harmed India.

jehadis always plundererd India and its heritage and made India bleed at every opportunity. Indira gandhi considered yasser arafat as her own brother. Funds were raised for palestine in Indian universities and I also donated.

But same arafat refused to side with India in UNO voting on Kashmir.(Palestine has UN representative and has right to vote).

Arafat's Muslim brotherhood with pakistan won against fariendship of Indira Gandhi. Such was namakharami.

So from Humane angle Israel is victim and Hamas along with refugees intentionally harboring terrorists and our support should go to defenders and not to attackers.

From India's own stetegic interest also Israel is more trust worthy vis a vis a Islamic state of Palestine.

Iraq ia a better case to fight against America by Indians as Saddam Hussein was the only leader among 66 Muslim countries who openly supported India on Kashmir or Ramjanambhumi.

he openly challenged Muslims of the world why they kept quite when saudis demolished a mosque on native home of Prophet Mohammed and built a car park on it and why they are crying for ramanants of a 15th century Mosque razed by angry Indians.

But our educated class rarely uses its own commonsnese and its own brain and its own commonsnese while taking sides with various groups.

Our people are moved more by propagands of terrorists and communists rather then our own observations and commonsnese.

#337
temporal
URL
April 17, 2008
03:57 PM

thank you gill;)

MS:

google Jane Defense or other sites and compare the resources of IDF and Hamas

then devise a strategy to fight off occupation and enlighten us

#338
Ruvy
April 17, 2008
04:06 PM

I have met a lot of the "so-called journalists" who report from Israel for the anti-Israel European, Canadian and American media. I have never seen such a bunch of spoiled and ignorant ninnies in my whole life. If Tzaha"l targeted the bastards, it doesn't really bother me.

When the messenger lies about my country consistently and continuously, I don't feel any moral obligation to protect his ass on the battlefield that he helps create. So when the army that is supposed to protect me (but doesn't) targets the scum, it doesn't bother me at all.

But the bent backed kikes on Government Hill will apologize profusely anyway.

It's obvious that you have no clue as what is really occurring in Gaza. Tzaha"l - good Jewish kids - is being used to attack Hamas for the sake of promoting the PLO, just as they are in Hevron. The greedy retards on Government Hill think they can negotiate with the PLO because the PLO has cut deals with them in the past. They are attacking Hamas because Hamas is refusing to cut deals. They believe in killing first and looting later. As I pointed out, the PLO believes in looting first and killing later.

Side note to Chandra:

The person you are answering is Man Singh, not me. Full marks for trying, but aim your answer at him, not me.

The simple solution for both Hamas and the PLO is extermination. I will not negotiate with the scum who would kill me - I'll kill him first.

But it is a bent backed kike who has the title of "prime minister" in this country, not a real man of a Jew.

- sigh -

BTW, if you want to send that comment to Olmert yourselves, the Hebrew word for kike is yehudón. Be my guest....

#339
Ruvy
April 17, 2008
04:11 PM

One more side note to Chandra:

There IS a G-d, and those who curse Israel - like you, Anamika, and Temporal - will be appropriately dealt with. Rest assured of this.

#340
temporal
URL
April 17, 2008
04:20 PM

Senior Hamas official Mahmoud Zahar writing in an opinion piece published Thursday in the Washington Post stated that Gazans can do 'no less' than rise up against Israel like Jews in the Warsaw ghetto did against the Nazis.

"Sixty-five years ago, the courageous Jews of the Warsaw ghetto rose in defense of their people. We Gazans, living in the world's largest open-air prison, can do no less," Zahar wrote in the newspaper.

The Gaza-based Hamas leader later decried Judaism as having "corrupted itself in the detour into Zionism, nationalism and apartheid." ~Haaretz


so the bottom line query: who are these new nazis?


#341
Gill
April 17, 2008
04:33 PM

>>>>google Jane Defense or other sites and compare the resources of IDF and Hamas<<<<<

Who said war is a "fair" business!!! When Islam had the sword Jews were butchered and Islams holy book "glorifies" it... So now sword has changed hands... but one has to differentiate the fact that jews are not treating muslims the same they suffered under the Islamic sword!!!!

>>>>then devise a strategy to fight off occupation and enlighten us<<<<<

Once again it seems that you have already taken sides!!! "occupation" by who....

PS Hamas is hated by other Sunni Arab nations also!!! They also want its destruction.... So by your logic Sunni Arabs are also "Nazis"!!!!

#342
temporal
URL
April 17, 2008
04:36 PM

thanks again gill:)

#343
Man Singh
URL
April 17, 2008
04:49 PM

Temp Bhai # 337

Buget of gang of dacoits or terrorist organisations can never be compared with Government Budgets as governments budgets are audited and governments are answerable to people.

dacoits and terrorists organisations surviwe on black money and whatever hamas is showing only a tip of the iceberg to win trust of people like you.

`occuupation' is a funny word here. a person who have taken back his own belongings from gang of looters and dacoits is not an act of `occupation' my freind.

I take it in this simple way:

We are two brothers of same parents. One brother is always loyal to parents , their culture and religion. Another brother ditched the parents and converted to foreign religion of invaders to their house. this second sided with these invaders against his own brothers and kicked this pro-parents brother out of house and occupied whole house himself.

This pro-parent brother struggled fro a while around the globe , after sometime manages to captured his onw parental home back. This anti parent brother is now attacking day and night this pro-parent brother to recapture then house.

This attacker is taking help from enemies of his forfathers and have intention to eliminate culture and people of his parents and forfathers.

Now tell me do you have sympathy for this father kiler, namakharam brother intending to destroy land people and culture of his forfathers or with a grateful child who is struggling to keep the heritage of his forfathers alive even today even if being tortured by this namakharam brother.

If palesteninans are feeling humiliated at isreal why dun they abandon the vbilence and come on negotiating table?

Hamas always threatened to eliminate Isreal , Iran always thretened to eliminate Isreal?

Did ever Israel threatened to finish Islam or Muslims? Never.

It is funny to see how even educated people side with terrorists vis a vis a secular democratic government controlled by an independent judiciary.

#344
Ruvy
April 17, 2008
05:16 PM

Full marks to the Gazan bastard for having learnt the Nazi technique of the BIG LIE - one which you use repeatedly also, Temporal.

Let's talk about the Warszawa Ghetto a little bit:

No Arab scumbag is going to steal our courage and attempt to appropriate it to himself without comment. And there will be comment sent to Ha'aretz as well - only those stupid self-hating cowards would give this Arab piece of shit a forum in Israel.

The Germans were not bombing here and there in Warszawa, occasionally attacking terrorist leaders. They were deporting Jews to death camps.

WHERE ARE THE DEATH CAMPS BURNING THOUSANDS OF ARABS DAILY IN MY COUNTRY, TEMPORAL? LINK A MAP, AND SHOW ME THE DAMNED DEATH CAMPS!!

Jews in Warszawa would have been overjoyed if all they had to deal with was an occasional fuel cut. They starved, they were deprived of water, and fuel AND THEY WERE BEING ROUNDED UP AND BEING DEPORTED TO DEATH CAMPS!

AGAIN I DEMAND TO KNOW!! WHERE ARE THE DEATH CAMPS BURNING THOUSANDS OF ARABS DAILY IN MY COUNTRY, TEMPORAL? LINK A MAP, AND SHOW ME THE DAMNED DEATH CAMPS!!

So, two groups of Jews smuggled in what few pistols, grenades and Sten guns they could and right before PessaH sixty-five years ago, they attacked a German convoy that entered the Ghetto to ROUND UP JEWS FOR DEATH CAMPS.

They fought in the buildings, and the Germans bombed the buildings to dust. the Jews retreated to the sewers of Warszawa.

When did the Hel Avir of Tzaha"l bomb Gaza to dust, Temporal? Send me a link to the file film! Send me a link to the thousands of casualties from the bombing!!! Send me a link to the Arabs fighting in the sewers of Gaza!!

YOU HAVE NO LINKS TO GENOCIDE, JUST A LOT OF ARAB BULLSHIT, BACKED UP BY MORE ARAB BULLSHIT AND FINALLY BACKED UP BY NAZI PROPAGANDA ALL OVER THE ARAB WORLD. THAT IS ALL YOU HAVE!!! TYPICAL TAQQIYA

But, I'll be glad to send you a link to the new Nazis and how they got started. The Association Between Nazism and Arab Anti-Semitism.

TRUTH, for a change.

#345
Ruvy
April 17, 2008
05:34 PM

Let's give some more evidence of the tie between the Arabs and the Nazis This video verifies the how the mentor of Arafat was responsible for the death of thousands of Jews in Eastern Europe. So, to put it bluntly, the Arab "Palestinians" who are loyal top the PLO, Hamas, and other terror organizations, ARE indeed 'Amaleq, and deserve to be wiped from the memory of mankind as G-d commands us in the Torah.

You don't like it? Too fuckin' bad. Deal with it!

#346
temporal
URL
April 17, 2008
05:34 PM

here is another NEWS REPORT over targetting innocent civilians

and the query remains

who are the new nazis?

who is the new david?

#347
temporal
URL
April 17, 2008
05:44 PM

here is a quiz:

1: identify the 'neighbor' and the 'murderer'
2: identify the paper this was published in

We have a neighbor who is a murderer. Not the criminal kind, thank God. Not a psychopath, God forbid. No, our neighbor is a religious murderer. A murderer in the name of God and for God. A murderer who wants to eradicate us and get rid of us so that we will not pollute his sacred soil with our presence. A murderer who believes that the world will be better, purer, if we are not here. A serious murderer, a murderer with values, a murderer with a mission.

Our killer-neighbor is not heartless. He is not without compassion. It would not occur to him, for example, to slaughter our children and wives. It would not occur to him to drown us all in the sea. Because of his human virtues and morals, he does not wish for each and every one of us to die a strange death.

#348
Man Singh
URL
April 17, 2008
05:54 PM

Temp Bhai,

I wonder why reporters become active only when people or government strats beating back the terrorists and in that process some `civilisans' are killed but keep quite when terrorists are attacking and killing innocent civilisans as main target as happened in Pakistan, bangladesh and kashmir where ethnic cleansing of Hindus is almost full and final.

It makes a sense that these people feel pity on on `terrorists' and civilians on their side and they have no mercy for civilians against the terrorists.

When dacoits were torturing villagers these human rightists and reproters were sleeping. But when villagers strated beating back the dacoits these human rightists and reporters strated beating their breasts. hai hai look how `barbaric' villagers are beating `innocent dacoits'?

Some times it happens when angry village youth even kill a pacifist vilage elders. gandhi was killed the same way.

When civilians are sheltering/harboring intentionally terrorists, and terrorists are attacking from there by missiles and rockets , to defend the civilians government has no choice but to beat the terrorists along with those behand whom they are hiding.

If jews might be on hamas place definitely hamas might have eliminated all jews by this this time without showing any mercy to anybody.

Look what Mahmud Gajanavi with Indians.

(From the accounts of arikh-i-Yamini of Utbi the secretary of Mahmud of Gaznavi)

At Thaneshwar.
"The blood of the infidels flowed so copiously at Thanesar that the stream was discolored, not withstanding its purity, and people were unable to drink it. The Sultan returned with plunder which is impossible to count. Praise be to Allah for the honor he bestows on Islam and Muslims."

At Somnath
"The Muslims paid no regard to the booty till they had satiated themselves with the slaughter of the infidels and worshipers of sun and fire.... The number of infidels killed exceeded 50,000"

At Mathura
"The infidels...deserted the fort and tried to cross the foaming river...but many of them were slain, taken or drowned... Nearly fifty thousand men were killed."


#349
Ruvy
April 17, 2008
05:56 PM

The Israeli army has expressed "sorrow" over the death of Shanaa. From the Al Jazeera report dealing with the death of a Reuters Arab journalist quoted by Temporal.

As I predicted in comment #338, Tzaha"l has apologized to Reuters. But Arabs never apologize over killing Jews, Temporal, they hand out candies and dance for joy! Such are the "innocent" civilians you talk about.

He who rejoices in the death of another is as guilty as the killer.

If that makes me as guilty as the brave Jewish kid who killed the Reuters shithead who has been feeding lies to the world for a Jew-hating news agency, so be it. This kind of guilt I can bear before the Almighty, if required to.

But it also makes all those Arabs dancing for joy over the death of Jewish children guilty of murder also. And unlike the Reuters cameraman, the Jewish kids were indeed innocent. And that difference is missed by people like you and the other self righteous people who curse Israel. That kind of guilt I would not wish upon anyone.

#350
temporal
URL
April 17, 2008
05:58 PM

what is an apology? words

whose words? the repeat offenders

how much is it worth? toilet paper

#351
Ruvy
April 17, 2008
06:13 PM

We have a neighbor who is a murderer. Not the criminal kind, thank God. Not a psychopath, God forbid. No, our neighbor is a religious murderer. A murderer in the name of God and for God. A murderer who wants to eradicate us and get rid of us so that we will not pollute his sacred soil with our presence. A murderer who believes that the world will be better, purer, if we are not here. A serious murderer, a murderer with values, a murderer with a mission.

You have just defined the Nazis and Hamas. Has Hamas set up a branch in your home town? Or have the Nazis?

#352
temporal
URL
April 17, 2008
06:21 PM

ruvy:

are you THAT challenged?

this is what i asked:

1: identify the 'neighbor' and the 'murderer'
2: identify the paper this was published in


try again, good luck:)

#353
Gill
April 17, 2008
06:23 PM

>>>what is an apology? words

whose words? the repeat offenders<<<<

Atleast they apologized!!!! Islamic people have never offered any "apology" for their "gracious" deeds ever!!!!

It seems you are suggesting their "gracious" acts are "pious" because it is sanctioned by their prophet and their holy book. As such they were only following their God and by all their "gracious" deeds against the Kafirs they were only offering "tribute" to their Allah!!!

But at the same time you call Ruvy and his fellow Jews a Nazi when they make the same claim!!!

Somehow you have already come to a conclusion (and want everyone else to believe also) that Muslim God has legitimacy over Jews God. (or any other God)

So I guess looking at your logic and convictions is that all Jews should convert to Islam in the name of "Peace" or "jump" into the sea.

By the way what happened to the concept of "compromise" for the sake of "peace". But it seems Islam and its Dhimmi supporters do not believe in that!!!

#354
Anamika
April 17, 2008
06:25 PM

"There IS a G-d, and those who curse Israel - like you, Anamika, and Temporal - will be appropriately dealt with. Rest assured of this."

Having more conversations with god? Glad to know your delusions are being reinforced. After all, how would you live with yourself without them...

#355
Anamika
April 17, 2008
06:28 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4402326.stm

Killing the unborn seems like a death camp to me...but hell, what would a non-chosen of the god like me know...

#356
temporal
URL
April 17, 2008
06:38 PM

ana

if you are non-chosen

then am heathen

;)

#357
Chandra
April 18, 2008
12:33 AM


It is beyond my comprehension as to why Gill and Man Singh are such great supporters of the Israeli humiliation of palestinians. Gora chamda dekhe ki nahin, logon ka dimag kharab ho jaata hain (White skin has wonders on some Indians, no wonder they ruled us for 180 years).

#358
Chandra
April 18, 2008
12:44 AM

Gill and Mansingh

Since it appears you are such ferverent supporters of the Israeli cause and it seems you believe a lot in the bible God, can i safely assume that you support Christian conversions in India? Afterall it is the same bible God and the same comic book called the testaments.

#359
commonsense
April 18, 2008
01:30 AM

Ruvvy:

""There IS a G-d, and those who curse Israel - like you, Anamika, and Temporal - will be appropriately dealt with. Rest assured of this.""

This guy need not be exposed, since he does such a great job....(four dots, right?)autoexposure. and then there are the hangers-on, Gill and Man Singh....they are not communicating directly with G-D yet, but who knows....they might in the near future...

#360
Ruvy
April 18, 2008
02:41 AM

in the near future...

That was only three dots, CS. You're learning. It took me a while to get the hang of it, too, after having used only three dots for about 45 years or more....

#361
Ruvy
April 18, 2008
09:48 AM

http://When Arabs shoot at Canadian Jews, the sage from Canada is silent. I guess Jews being shot at, no matter where they originate, are not worth mentioning, eh Temporal? Jewish blood is as cheap as herring, right old chap? Even Canadian Jews, your own countrymen.

So, it's clear that no matter what color your skin is, you are just a fellow traveler with the Nazis, Temporal. Obviously, to you, only Arabs rate any mention. Just like Amin el-Husseini.

Your Hakenkreuz is on order. Would you like a death's head to go with it?

Anamika, we have sonic booms every single day in Judea and Samaria. NOBODY complains of abortions from them, and the folks in the Jewish towns and villages out here have plenty of kids - four is usually a minimum. The whiny trash from the BBC you send is pathetic. Can't you do better? How about film showing Jewish soldiers murdering off hundreds of Arabs art a shot? That's what genocide looks like, Anamika.

You can't do better, and you know it.

There is no genocide.
There is no forced expulsion of Arabs.
There is no extermination of Arabs.

What there is is a rebellion going on, with a piss poor attempt to put it down, and a pack of professional liars trying to make it look like Jews murdering off "poor Palestinians". Maybe some idiots on the Indian sub-continent will buy this garbage, along with a few over-guilty Jews elsewhere, but intelligent people with clear vision and understanding don't.

You may know a great deal about Dharma and the principles that guide it, and you may know what some Israeli Hayélet told you about her service in Tzaha"l, but you don't know shit about what goes on in this country. And it shows.

Your spectacles are on order. What color frames would you like - saffron, green or white?

#362
Gill
April 18, 2008
09:58 AM

>>>Since it appears you are such ferverent supporters of the Israeli cause<<<<

Did you see me anywhere saying I support this side or that side????

As an outsider why you being so biased and afraid to call spade a spade or it seems that you are simply "anti-jew" similar to how you are "anti-hindu"????? And "pro-islam" and "Arab Imperialism"!!!

>>>Gora chamda dekhe ki nahin, logon ka dimag kharab ho jaata hain (White skin has wonders on some Indians, no wonder they ruled us for 180 years).<<<<<

WOW Dhimmitude at its best. A classic "Dhimmi" statement!!! So now it was Jews who ruled India too!!!! Its amazing to see that your subconscious is even scared to remember "1000 yrs of enslavement" by Islam and Arab Imperialism. Extreme Submission is evident from the fact that you are feverously fighting your "masters" fight as a good "Dhimmi" even though you have nothing to do with either party. But to appease your "masters" you would even go to the extent of calling jews "Nazis"!!!! That's why I said before also Arabs had been the most successful "Imperialists" in human history.

By the way so called "victims" in Israel have a higher living standards and access to basic amenities than more than 70% of the Indians.

#363
Guido
April 18, 2008
10:08 AM

This length of this thread might set a Guinness record. Here are some facts (which should appease the counselor).

To get a geographical and demographic perspective, take a look at Israel and the surrounding community using Goggle Earth and Wikipedia.

Israel: 7.2m (76% = 5.5m Jews) 8,522 sq mi = 645/sq mi

BORDERING NATIONS

Syria: 19m (90% = 17.1m Muslim) 71,479 sq mil
Egypt: 79m (85% = 67.1m Muslim) 386,660 sq mil
Jordon: 6m (95% = 5.7m Muslim) 45,495 sq mil
Lebanon: 4.2m (59% = 2.5m Muslim) 4,035 sq mil

NEIGHBORS

Saudi Arabia 27.6m (90% = 24.8m Muslim) 830,000 sq mi
Turkey 70.5m (99% = 69.8m Muslim) 500,000 sq mi
Iran 71.2m (99% = 70.5m Muslim) 636,371 sq mi
Iraq 29.2m (97% = 28.3m Muslim) 169,234 sq mi

285.8m Muslims/2,643,274 sq mi = pop density 108/sq mi

Israel sits on .3 percent of the total area with more than six times the population density. They are outnumbered by more than 50 to 1. The leader of one Muslim country (Iran) is sworn to destroy Israel. Iran alone outnumbers Israel by almost 13 to 1.

From simplistic view, it would seem that peace benefits Israel the most. No one has as much to lose. Would any rational person facing these odds want to fuel the flames of conflict?

The next time someone tells you Israel is beating up on their neighbors, keep these stats in mind.

Ciao, Guido

#364
Chandra
April 18, 2008
10:27 AM

Gill

You can accuse me of whatever you like but the fact is your whole opinion is based on sucking up to Goras. If Israeli occupation is good I am sure you found the Mughal and British empire very constructive too.

Also, you have not responded to my question about your attitude to conversions. The israelis and missionaries base their approach on the same comic book ...

#365
Chandra
April 18, 2008
10:32 AM

Guido

I think you missed one small point. Let me restate part of what you said

Israel: 7.2m (76% = 5.5m Jews)+100 NUCLEAR WEAPONS 8,522 sq mi = 645/sq mi + UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 300 m, GDP OF 14 TRILLION DOLLARS, 10000 NUCLEAR WEAPONS WITH MORE THAN 200000 TROOPS IN THE SURROUNDING REGIONS, DIRECTLY CONTROLS TEH REGIMES OF SAUDI ARABIA, JORDAN, EGYPT, IRAQ, UAE, BAHRIAN, KUWAIT ETC ETC

VERSUS

Iran 71.2m (99% = 70.5m Muslim) 636,371 sq mi, ZERO NUCLEAR WEAPONS AND A GDP OF $ 100 BILLION (1% OF AMERICA)
Syria: 19m (90% = 17.1m Muslim) 71,479 sq mil,ZERO NUCLEAR WEAPONS AND A GDP OF 20 BILLION...

Now the comparison is accurate :-)


#366
Gill
April 18, 2008
10:33 AM

>>>From simplistic view, it would seem that peace benefits Israel the most. No one has as much to lose. Would any rational person facing these odds want to fuel the flames of conflict?<<<<<

Yes but all these people someone ignore this fact and are blaming one side only. They also want us to believe that the so called "innocent" and "victim" side is "non-violent" similar "Tibetians".

No the other side has long continous track record of "violence" against "non-believers". And this violence is fueled by their "faith" and "words" of their 'prophet" and "God".

Bottom line is the "Islam" and "Muslims" do not want "compromise". Because it is going to be "unislamic". Arafat got more for his people when he was ready to "compromise" only than he got by rigid stands and violence.

#367
Anamika
April 18, 2008
10:34 AM

Ruvy: "Your spectacles are on order. What color frames would you like - saffron, green or white?"

How about the gas emission factor on those, Ruvy?

#368
Anamika
April 18, 2008
10:39 AM

Chandra - the nutty brigade won't engage on facts. They will engage on bhains being stolen/not stolen. Of course they ALSO won't engage on why one rule applies to the Israeli bhains (ie Palestine) and the Muslim one (ie Al-Andalus).

Or indeed given that European Aryans had "colonized India originally" (myth/non-history/but who's counting when god speaks), why should there be a problem with the British empire in the 19th and 20th century.

Wait till the frothing begins on conversions. :-)

#369
Ruvy
April 18, 2008
10:44 AM

The israelis and missionaries base their approach on the same comic book....

Chandra, remind me to show the same respect for your works of wisdom as you show for mine.

[CENSORED BY AUTHOR TO MAINTAIN CIVILITY]

Just remember that in my "comic book", it warns that he who curses Israel will be cursed. And when it comes to curses, G-d doesn't "joke around".

#370
Gill
April 18, 2008
10:48 AM

>>>>The israelis and missionaries base their approach on the same comic book ...<<<<

So does Islam!!!

#371
Anamika
April 18, 2008
11:14 AM

Ruvy: "Just remember that in my "comic book", it warns that he who curses Israel will be cursed. And when it comes to curses, G-d doesn't "joke around".

And the Christian version says only those who follow their man on the dead tree shall be saved and everyone else shall suffer the perils of hell.

The Islamic version claims all others are infidels.

Hmmm...for a god that spoke in three different tongues to three different people, your god sure has a crap sense of humour!

#372
Guido
April 18, 2008
11:18 AM

Chandra # 365 (beautiful name BTW)

I'm a bit unclear about your intentions concerning the stats you quoted. If it's to imply that America's military and financial support has help prevent the annihilation of Israel, I would agree.

Strategically speaking, nukes are the great equalizer...especially in Israel's case. But that doesn't speak to the premise of my post. Why does Israel need nukes or a superpower's support in the first place?

#373
Man Singh
URL
April 18, 2008
11:26 AM

Bhai Chandra #357 & 358

At international level there are three major powers today.
1. 166 countries strong Christian inspired West with an intention to christianise the wholr world.
2. 66 Muslims countries with strong fervour to islamise the world.
3. Communist world led by China suported by Cuba, venejuela and North Korea

There are three minor forces striglling for their survival.

1. jews
2. Hindus
3. Western Scientific community honestly believinbg in human values.

We Hindus have no supporter or helper and above three agressive forces find a soft target in us due our humanistic values and soft approach toards human problems.

To defeat the divisive agressive ideologies of above three Jehadis Missionery and communist, weaker three have to come closer and do everything within their reach to defend themselves. Otherwise be ready to perish.

It is surprising to see how people see a secural democratic county Isreal humiliating Palestenians and shut up their eyes at terrorists declaring complete annihilation of jews and isreal.

Kya hum log `kaane' go gaye hai? why are we not using our second eye my freinds.

Who intend to eliminate Israel from face of the earth. Just search somewhere and decide.

So far as your Gora chamds concept is concerned as per my knowledge skin color of Isreali and Palesteninas is the same. they are same people by blood and brothers among themselves like like Indians and pakistanis.

But as Islam has created divisions among brothers and made our own brothers acting like our enemies, the same way islam has polluted minds of brothers of jews and their own blood is acting like their hard core enemy.

Look how dangerous religious conversions are?

Bhai Chandra, I am son of a farmer and a villager. I myself suffered at the hands of dacoits who use to attack my village and can feel the pain of Punjabis, Sindhis , Bengalis and Kashmiris who were kicked out of their lands by jehadis. I can feel the pain of Jews also when jehaids ther attack their civilians.

Indians are spineless and they cowardly allowed territory after territory to go to enemies hands. they allowed their people to convert to foreign religions and become associate of foreign invaders and felt proud in allwing their housed to be gutted by invaders and their women and children raped killed and converted to foreign religions of invaders.

Israel is doing its best to defend its people from the same humiliation what Indians have suffered in history.

I will be happy to see dacoits suffer and get humiliated vis a vis villagers facing the same fate.

So far as death of palesteninas civilians is concerened, any torture to any innocent is Adharma and i'll be the first to opppose any type of opression.

But I have seen with my own eyes that there is no civilian among palestenians. Every palestenians is either a fighter or their supporter. Jehadis are using non fighter women and children as their human shield.

You tell me how a country who value life of its citizens should protect its people from these barbaric jehadis.

In India Gandhi gave easy solution. Don'nt care for Indians lives. let them die. There are billion of cats and dogs there. Why care? let them die. Killer will change its heart one day or the other?

But Isreal is not a Gandhian. It is taking all precautionary and offensive mesaures within its reach to protect life and dignity of its people against attacking gangs of jehadis.

You please come up with solution.

Shimon Peres in one interview said `if we kill jehadis ready to attack us, we'll get condemnation. If jehadis kill our people we'll get condolences'. We prefer condemnation againt condolences.

We Indians prefer condolences for brital murder of our people in place of condemnations.

You tell me what you will prefer Chandra Bhai?

Palestenians always supported Pakistan on Kashmir in spite of heartily supports Indians gave to Yasser Arafat and palestenian cause including financial help? badle me mili namakharami? Ab tum batao aapka commonsense kya kahta hai. Let's not be emotional my friends.

I don;nt care what Bible God or Isreali God says. I make opinions based on ground realities. If tomorrow situation changes , I'll change my stretegy as well. Bottom line is attaching dacoits should be defeated.

Gussa nahi karo Chandra. Bhul Chuk Maaf. My sincere apology for any offence to anybody.

#374
Guido
April 18, 2008
11:34 AM

Chandra # 365 Writes:

"[America}DIRECTLY CONTROLS TEH REGIMES OF SAUDI ARABIA, JORDAN, EGYPT, IRAQ, UAE, BAHRIAN, KUWAIT ETC ETC"

The US government has varying forms of influence on some of these countries...from allot to almost zero. But I seriously hope you don't actually believe the statement. If so, I would recommend some other source of news and information. The quote is simply ludicrous.

Ciao, Guido

#375
temporal
URL
April 18, 2008
12:45 PM

Guido 363 + Chandra 365:

in addition to these two posts one minor observance. ..of all the states mentioned, israel is the only one with NO defined and official borders
Israel/Occupied Palestinian Territories: Full investigation needed into Israeli army killing of civilians

#376
temporal
URL
April 18, 2008
12:58 PM

ps: the link was an update not related with the point made in 375

#377
Gill
April 18, 2008
01:13 PM

CS
I tried talking to God and id didn't work I guess he only talks to "people of the book" only!!!

Chandra and others
I never knew the extent of Dhimmism in India. Now they bring in irrelevant issues of conversion, Aryan Invasion theory and Gora issues. Its just amazing to see this twisted psyche. But I guess Arab Imperialism with its institution of Islam has literally succeeded in India by creating Dhimmis out of non-believers. It seems these people would go to any extent to prove their loyalties and Dhimitude. In process attack twist and distort their own history and realities to appease their "mental masters". It seems these Dhimmis cannot comprehend Israeli resort because Indian Dhimmi resolve had been simply "give" and twist facts to justify the aggressor and the losses.

These Indian Dhimmis wants to fight a muslim war thousands of miles away with a group who has nothing to do with Indian society. They claim to be know it all and self proclaimed great humanitarians, idealists and caring. But that's so hypocritical these people do not have to go far look inside and in your own backyard. The most suffering and victimized people are the Tibetians. But none of them care!!!! But they care what Israel is doing!!! Which is just a joke!!! Only a sick mind would have audacity to ignore the following and go around thousands of miles try to preach...

The Chinese, in a span of fifty years,

• have killed 1.2 million Tibetans,
• razed to the ground 6,254 monasteries,
• destroyed 60 per cent of religious, historical and cultural archives and
• one Tibetan out of ten is still in jail.
• a quarter million Chinese troops are occupying Tibet and
• there are 7.5 million Chinese settlers for only 6 million Tibetans in Tibet
• In many places such as the capital, Lhasa, Tibetans are outnumbered two to one...

But ofcourse be a self proclaimed "Spokesperson" for power 1.5 billion strong society..... and what have these Dhimmis done for these people who really need help and resources and are the real "victims" right under their noses. !!!!!! NOTHING!!!!!!!! This is what I call "FETISH MIND"

#378
Guido
April 18, 2008
01:35 PM

temporal #375

I won't be lured into a quibbling endless quasi-debate that seeks to quantify atrocities and then determine the villain. We could add another 3 million posts to this thread citing tit-for-tat killings. This is exactly part of the problem. Pointless!

My previous post highlights the physical environment that this drama is unfolding in. The demographics are what they are. Anyone who suggests that Israel is motivated to be the aggressor is ignoring reality.

Ciao, Guido

#379
temporal
URL
April 18, 2008
02:26 PM

guido:

understand your reluctance not to address the "official" border ... it speaks:)


Anyone who suggests that Israel is motivated to be the aggressor is ignoring reality.

it is for this reality that i post links from the media

it is israel that is perpetuating the mayhem ... the killings, murders and bombardment ... the ghettoisation and bantustisation of an occupied territory and peoples ... it is for this and more that israel is the new hitler and palestinians are reduced to be the jews of that era

if you have links to the contrary feel free to bring them here and discuss


#380
Chandra
April 18, 2008
02:44 PM

Ruvy

You can say what you want :-) You represent a heartless nation. Ask anybody!!!!

rgds

#381
Chandra
April 18, 2008
02:50 PM

Man Singh -373

As much patriotic as i can be. I cannot agree with you. I dont think Israel is a friend. We have use for them and they for us. That is fine. I dont think any country in the world is India's friend. Every country uses us and we should use them. That simple.

rgds

#382
Gill
April 18, 2008
02:51 PM

>>>You can say what you want :-) You represent a heartless nation. Ask anybody!!!!<<<<<

who and what do you represent???????

A heartless nation has still given so called "victims" higher living standards and access to basic amentities than yours!!!!!

#383
Chandra
April 18, 2008
03:00 PM

Guido

I am persuaded that all the nations I mentioned in the list are controlled by the United States. No wonder that only Iran (and Syria) are considered enemies of the United States.
The truth is this manipulation of regimes is why common people in the middle east hate the US. Atleast Pew and BBC surveys seem to suggest that.

#384
Guido
April 18, 2008
03:03 PM

temporal

"it is israel that is perpetuating the mayhem ... the killings, murders and bombardment ... the ghettoisation and bantustisation of an occupied territory and peoples ... it is for this and more that israel is the new hitler and palestinians are reduced to be the jews of that era"

I won't be lured into a quibbling endless quasi-debate that seeks to quantify atrocities and then determine the villain. We could add another 3 million posts to this thread citing tit-for-tat killings. This is exactly part of the problem. Pointless!

But I repeat myself.

Ciao, Guido

#385
Man Singh
URL
April 18, 2008
03:17 PM

Chandra # 380 and Devi Anamika # 371

what's wrong if villagers have better weapond now to beat back the invading dacoits?

How villagers beating back the invading dacoits be called `heartless' and `invading dacoits as victims'?

Bhainswalas are not nuts Anamika. They are people with commonsense and offer realistic practical solutions to problems.

These rural based bhainswalas nut (Sardar Patel)intergrated 561 desi riyasats in to One India and so called `non nut humanistic western educated Nehru could not intergrate a 562nd Riyasat of kashmir only because he was not having common sense and moved as per emotions and not by logic.

jews were weak and beaten by everybody.
They organised themselves build up economic and military power and those invading dacoits are kept at bay today. What's wrong in it?

India also attacked and beaten by these invading dacoits gangs. Spineless coward Indians did nothing and getting beaten even today.

Shame o ye heartful people that you can'nt execute even the order of your supreme court to hang a terrorists.

You deserve beatings my freinds. You desreve terrorists attacks. You deserve enslavements , you deserve it.

Isreal getting condemnation as `heartless nation' but able to protect its people's lives.

India on the other hand may get a certificate of soft state but at the cost of cold blodded murderes of its own people at the hands of terrorists every now and then and few condelence letters.

Friends come on. Decide if you want `condemnation' with your people alive or condolence letters on dead bodies of your brothers and sisters?

I'll prefer condemnation and my brothers and sisters alive.

I'll do everything within my reach to beat back the terrorists and dacoits to defend my brothers and sisters and my fellow villagers. and belive me I did it.

Since 1986 there is no attack from any gang of dacoits on my village once they were beaten back by village youth including me. Of course nikammi police charged me and my freinds for `protecting my villagers' in the name of `taking law in my hands'.

But I have no regret of doing my duty. I can'nt wait for police to come if somebody is insulting my mothers and sisters. I'll take gun in my hand and shoot the rapist immediately.

What's your suggestion Chandra and Anamika? Should I wait for Police to come and arrest the rapits from my house after few hours? Will you allow this killer n rapist to do everything and then get arrested by police or run away if police is late?

#386
temporal
URL
April 18, 2008
04:45 PM

guido:

i hear you and since we are repeating....:)

these killing are going on NOW under our noses and while the kill ratio is approx 35:1....still i am against a SINGLE ciivilian death from any side

ps: as for "quantifying" i take it with a chuckle...you started it with areas, populations etc....;)

#387
Chandra
April 18, 2008
04:49 PM

Man Singh

You are the one supporting a regime created out the same religious texts that are driving conversions in India. You cannot separate both. Fraud based conversions cannot be tolerated at all. By supporting the scam behaviour of some fundamentalists in Israel you are indirectly supportng conversions in India. Please understand that.

#388
Gill
April 18, 2008
05:00 PM

>>>>You are the one supporting a regime created out the same religious texts that are driving conversions in India.<<<<

This is a new one.. Jews are on conversion mission in India. !!!!!!

It is Islam that did all this crap in the name of Allah in India... and guess what India was divided and the creation of Pakistan and Bangladesh was based on Allah and Islam............

What israel has to do with anything that goes on in India????

#389
Guido
April 18, 2008
05:26 PM

Chandra #383

"No wonder that only Iran (and Syria) are considered enemies of the United States."

Fore the most part, the US is at odds with Syria over Iraq, although it is not the only point of contention:

"Syria's failure to prevent Sunni fighters from infiltrating across its 450-mile border with Iraq is the most contentious issue dividing the two countries. While Syria strongly denies allegations that it is allowing its border to serve as an insurgent gateway, both the Iraqi and U.S. governments accuse Damascus of not doing enough to prevent the flow of insurgents, fighters, and financing into Iraq. Furthermore, Syria--a longstanding host to Iraqi dissidents--continues to harbor Iraqi Ba'athist officials, reportedly allowing them to organize meetings and engage in other political activities." http://www.usip.org/pubs/usipeace_briefings/2007/0403_syria_iraq.html

The same is true of Iran, albeit their involvement is more direct:

"U.S. military and intelligence officials tell ABC News that they have caught shipments of deadly new bombs at the Iran-Iraq border. They are a very nasty piece of business, capable of penetrating U.S. troops' strongest armor.

What the United States says links them to Iran are tell-tale manufacturing signatures -- certain types of machine-shop welds and material indicating they are built by the same bomb factory.

The signature is the same because they are exactly the same in production," says explosives expert Kevin Barry. "So it's the same make and model." http://abcnews.go.com/International/IraqCoverage/story?id=1692347

There is also Iran's nuclear program to consider.

"I am persuaded that all the nations I mentioned in the list are controlled by the United States."

Your reality scares me. I don't know how you were persuaded of such utter nonsense, but as a US citizen and seasoned combat veteran, I can assure you that your assumption is not only false, it is laughable. It would be the same if I said China controlled India. Can you not see how ridiculous the assertion is? We can barely govern our own country, yet we control half the Middle East?

"The truth is this manipulation of regimes is why common people in the middle east hate the US. At least Pew and BBC surveys seem to suggest that."

All countries act in their own self interest. Let me ask you some questions. I don't expect an answer...but please honestly ask yourself:

Do you pretend to know what the US or any other country (other than your own) does to advance their interest?

Do you believe the media (in any form) will tell you the "truth"?

Do you think they know the truth? And if they did, do you believe they'll twist it to fit their agenda?

Do you prescribe to the axiom that perception is reality?

The cold hard truth is this: In the Middle East, views (truths) are shaped by a powerful state controlled media. Some of them are very clever and know exactly how to pander to the lowest common denominator of the population. Hate is a beautiful elixir. Some of these élites, either collectively or individually, work for themselves, a government, a corporation, or more than likely, a little of all three. And unless you understand and accept this fact, you will be just as susceptible.

What do you call an individual who never takes responsibility for their actions? Someone who always points the finger and blames others for their woes. Victim? Projectionist? Irresponsible? Yet when governments do this, the masses lap it up like milk. Even a free press is not incorruptible. You must always, always question everything you hear. Less you become an unconscious consumer of Kool-Aid.

Do you think people "hate" America because of Iraq? Or do they "hate" America because Saddam was thrown out of Kuwait? Do they hate America for trying to bring democracy to the Middle East, or any where else? Do people "hate" the president? Do they "hate" all Americans, or just some? If they hate the country, I must assume the emotion applies to everyone. So everyone in America is hated because....? I hope I'm making my point.

Chandra, people hate the US because an agenda driven media wants them (and you) to hate America. "The Great Satan" is a very useful scapegoat.

If you can't see this now, perhaps you will in time.

Ciao, Guido

#390
Guido
April 18, 2008
05:35 PM

temporal writes: "ps: as for "quantifying" i take it with a chuckle...you started it with areas, populations etc....;)"

Temporal, isn't past your bedtime? I know it is for an old man like me.

Since you have the propensity for lumping the unlumpable, let me explain. I was quantifying demographics, not a body count. But you knew that already.

Buon a notte!

Guido

#391
commonsense
April 18, 2008
05:51 PM

Gill:

"This is a new one.. Jews are on conversion mission in India. !!!!!!"

Not if you have followed Ruvvy's writings for a while. Among other things, he claims (as do a lot of fringe Jewish fundamentalist groups) that the Pathans of South Asia are actually some lost Jewish tribes who will sooner or later come back to the fold. He has some articles on this issue, replete with appropriate quotes from the Torah of course, on Blog Critics (BC). Nice, when a lot of secular Israeli Jews, tired of the mayhem and of folks like Ruvvy are leaving the country in droves and they need more people...(three dots)

#392
commonsense
April 18, 2008
05:57 PM

Ruvy:
""That does not subtract from the truth of my words, and in the fullness of time, you will be forced to recognize that - or you will not live at all...At the appropriate time, such evidence will be before you that either you will go insane, or you will believe. This will be part of the Redemption."

Just checked into an anxiety clinic after shitting green with fear for a while. Will I be saved if I always use four dots in the future...or is it too late and I'm already insane and therefore redeemed?

#393
commonsense
April 18, 2008
06:05 PM

Guido:

""From simplistic view, it would seem that peace benefits Israel the most. No one has as much to lose. Would any rational person facing these odds want to fuel the flames of conflict?""

Assumption: unvarnished rationality drives the conduct of states and the likes of Ruvvy and his ilk. As for the latter, we have reams of evidence here to question this assumption...as for states: well, there are different groups with different takes on rationality. In the context of the only country in the region that has no officially defined borders, and with a number of powerful groups, such as Ruvvy's, to whom God has promised various versions of "Greater Israel", rationality, regardless of which version it is, is sure to take a beating.

#394
commonsense
April 18, 2008
06:13 PM

Ruvvy,

The last time you were foaming and frothing, in response to the response you rec'd for claiming that the holocaust was the consequence of European Jews forsaking their religion as Kahane understood it, you did mention something about giving your family a hard time after you ran out of arguments and quotes of conversations with God. Trust this is not the case again. Regardless of the fact that I feel sorry for your delusions about communicating with God and him promising you some real estate, I have absolutely nothing against you or your family. Regardless of the discussion here, please be nice to your family.

#395
Man Singh
URL
April 18, 2008
07:17 PM

Bhai Chandra # 381

Jews lived in India for more then 1000 years. They never attemped any conversion and when they got their looted land back, almost most of them returned to their home. I have seen Christian missioneries actively trapping rural poor in a net of dollor for religion and Muslims engaged throat slitting for religion for 700 years.

I never heard any jew converted Hindus to Judaism accept around 137 Christians from North east. Government of India in a very funny way banned that conversion to Judaism at the compaint of christians (ironicall same government allows conversion of Hindus to christianity thought.).

It seems Chandra you are confusing jews with Christians? As per my knowledge Jews never harmed Hindu interests in history, Muslims jehadis and christians missioneris did.

Bhai temp # 386

Criteria of right and wrong is never whose side casuality are more. Casulaities occur in cycles. When dacoits start attackcing village, it is villagers who suffer maximum casualities.

But when village youth organsie themselves and chalenge the dacoits, its dacoits side to suffer.

Isreal is passing bthrough second phase now. Alert villagers are beating back the dacoits and naturally dacoits will suffer more.

Yes I am with you Temp bhai that innocent civilians should not be targeted. But this lesson is applicable on Jehadis more then Isreal.

jehadis intentionally are using their civilians as human shields so that their propagandists can use `civilian deaths' against Isreal. its so simple.

I repeat again temp bhai that I am with on this issue of `no civilian should die' but share with readers here what isreal should do to defend its people from cruel hands of Jehadis?

Yes isreal will leace gaja and west bank. who can Gurentee peace? has any Arab or Muslim leaders assured Isreal till date in writing that there will be no attack in isreali if they give this gaza and west bank to palesteninas?

Indians gave 28% land to Muslims in 1947 who were merely 24% at that time. half of muslims remained on India's side. that means effectively Muslims(12%) are enjoying 28% land today. In spite of that they need Kashmir today. You give them kashmir, they will demand Punjab and UP and kerala. you give them these and they'll demand further down and Indians will be having no place to go other then jump in to Indian ocean and commit suicide. So called secular people are preparing this death bed fro educated Indians my freinds.

same thing is applicable in Isreal-Palestenina conflict or any conflict wherever Muslims jehadis are involved. there are certain things common:

1. Dispute if for `separate land for Muslims' all over the world strating from Russia to Phillippine (Russia, Kosovo, Isreal, India, China, Thailand, Phillipine, Nigeria , Sudan and where not?)

2. Criterea for solving the conflict is `land fro peace'. Either give them land or face the terror.

3. You give them land and they will demand more and renew the dispute.

As such jehaids VS the rest is an eternal conflict. You keep on offering them land and pospone your complete annihilation. You can only pospone it my freind and can manage a good life for yourself., But you are creating troble for your generations.

Think over it deeply. call me backward , ganvar or whatever you want. But please analyse if I have agrain of truth in my statements made here?

#396
Chandra
April 19, 2008
01:58 AM

Gill

Who said anything aout Jews? We were discussing two things here - The religious book and Israelis. The Israelis derive their legitimacy from a (comic) book and do so the missionaries in India. By agreeing with the Israelis you are also willing to accept that christianity is the TRUE religion or whatever. You are willing to accept that you are part of some freak show called hinduism. I am shocked to here that somebody like Gill is willing to accept the supremacy of Christianity over others.


#397
Chandra
April 19, 2008
02:03 AM

Man Singh

I donot understand where Jews have come into the picture here. This discussion is about a nation called Israel and the basis of its creation. As articulated in the previous point, your 'orgasmic' acceptance of Israel is an indirect acceptance of christian conversions in India. Afterall, both of them derive their legitimacy from the same (comic) book. I am really shocked that my fellow Hindus have become so blind in their defence of Israel that they miss the larger linkage with conversions in India. This kind of Hindu divisions is why so many foreigners have ruled India. We are always trying to 'impress' or prove something to Goras.
After the preaching of the last so many months I am shocked that you are willing to ditch your fellow hindus on the question of Israel, what a pity.

rgds

#398
Chandra
April 19, 2008
02:28 AM

Guido

I am sorry you missed a larger issue with Syria and that is not iraq. It is lebanon. People like me dont even know what is truth in Lebanon but there is no denying that Lebanon was and is the biggest source of conflict between Syria and the US. The second problem is the continued occupation of the Golan heights. Either way, the relationship is not where it should be. The recent israeli bombing of syria indicates that the future does not look very bright either.

The problem of Iran manifests itselfs in many ways. But the fundamental issue is that the US Govt has failed to get over with the 1979 overthrow of the Shah. So during the last 30 years, the US Govt and its teams have found various ways to find devil in Iran. This does not mean I approve of what the regime does but this is to reaffirm the fact that your Govt is not a saint at all.

I think the American denial about what they control or donot control has always been a problem. Did I in my post say you control Sudan? Or did i say you control Sri Lanka or Thailand? No, I listed out names that you do have a large measure of control. In fact the common features of all those regimes are that they are not democratic and depend on US military power to supress their own people. If you wish to disagree I cannot persuade you to change your mind nor does it matter to me really. Either way, the fundamental problem for the US is its prejudiced support for Israel. Everybody else in the world accepts this except Americans themselves. Either you folks are gifted with something really superior or the politics in your country has evolved to a stage where any condemnation of israel is considered unacceptable. It is you and your nation that are thoroughly manipulated. It is for you to consider.

I will ignore all your personal comments that were not required at all----> "nonsense", "Kool Aid", "laughable". :-)



#399
Guido
April 19, 2008
04:24 AM

Commonsense #393

Point taken! Rationality, like beauty can be in the eye of the beholder. As you illustrate, this thread is a good example. We can only hope.

Ciao, Guido

#400
Anamika
April 19, 2008
05:12 AM

Israeli soldier's talk of their own actions. By Nuremberg standards, these are war criminals. But as Israelis they are above the international and man-made laws...guess thats the advantage of talking to god a lot:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/our-reign-of-terror-by-the-israeli-army-811769.html

#401
Guido
April 19, 2008
06:21 AM

Chandra,

First and foremost, I sincerely apologize if I have offended you. That was not my intention. My use of the language you highlighted was offered to emphasis a point. I should've chosen my words more carefully. Please permit me to explain.

I'm checking my ego at the door before continuing, I would ask that you do the same before reading further. Hopefully, with our defenses down, nothing will be taken personally and we will better understand each other.

There is no doubt a huge chasm in perception and understanding exists between our relative views on issues. However, since we speak the same language and are both somewhat rational, there is no reason why we can't make ourselves understood. Let's try again.

"I am sorry you missed a larger issue with Syria and that is not iraq. It is lebanon. People like me dont even know what is truth in Lebanon but there is no denying that Lebanon was and is the biggest source of conflict between Syria and the US. The second problem is the continued occupation of the Golan heights. Either way, the relationship is not where it should be. The recent israeli bombing of syria indicates that the future does not look very bright either."

Thank you or the clarification. The larger issue was in my mind, hence my qualifying statement, "...although it is not the only point of contention..." For the sake of brevity and to keep the comments focused, I chose not expand the discussion...there was no value added. I agree with you, the Lebanon problem is large. Which issue is most important? That probably depends on when and who you ask in the State Department. Again, not relevant to my points.

"The problem of Iran manifests itselfs in many ways. But the fundamental issue is that the US Govt has failed to get over with the 1979 overthrow of the Shah."
So during the last 30 years, the US Govt and its teams have found various ways to find devil in Iran. This does not mean I approve of what the regime does but this is to reaffirm the fact that your Govt is not a saint at all."

It is probably true that the 1979 revolution is still present at some level in the minds of older Americans...but the "fundamental issue"? The main concerns for the US have already been mentioned in this thread: a proxy war with the US via Iraq, nuclear proliferation, support of terrorism, and funding, equipping, and training Hezbollah. These seem to be the most current pressing subjects...not an event that occurred 29 years ago.

As for sainthood, I never suggested anything of the sort. If I lead you to this conclusion, please provide my quote in the proper context. And if I may offer a suggestion...you will do yourself a favor if you stop speaking about governments like they're living entities. That's an old media trick used to demonize whole groups of people. It's very effective on the unaware.

"I think the American denial about what they control or donot control has always been a problem. Did I in my post say you control Sudan? Or did i say you control Sri Lanka or Thailand? No, I listed out names that you do have a large measure of control. In fact the common features of all those regimes are that they are not democratic and depend on US military power to supress their own people. If you wish to disagree I cannot persuade you to change your mind nor does it matter to me really. Either way, the fundamental problem for the US is its prejudiced support for Israel. Everybody else in the world accepts this except Americans themselves. Either you folks are gifted with something really superior or the politics in your country has evolved to a stage where any condemnation of israel is considered unacceptable. It is you and your nation that are thoroughly manipulated. It is for you to consider."

I don't know where to start with this. You can help me better understand your views by listing some examples and sources. My guess is that you are getting your news and information from one or more very biased organizations.

Let's examine your words.

1. "I think the American denial about what they control or donot control has always been a problem. Did I in my post say you control Sudan? Or did i say you control Sri Lanka or Thailand?"

Where did this come from? Did you read another post and assume it was mine? Where in this discussion do I mention the Sudan, Sri Lanka, or Thailand? Why are you reading things into my comments that are clearly not there? Provide the quote and comment number please.

2. "...I listed out names that you do have a large measure of control. In fact the common features of all those regimes are that they are not democratic and depend on US military power to supress their own people. If you wish to disagree I cannot persuade you to change your mind nor does it matter to me really."

Yes you can change my mind. Please provide some empirical data supporting your claims that the US "DIRECTLY CONTROLS TEH REGIMES OF SAUDI ARABIA, JORDAN, EGYPT, IRAQ, UAE, BAHRIAN, KUWAIT ETC ETC."

3. "...the fundamental problem for the US is its prejudiced support for Israel. Everybody else in the world accepts this except Americans themselves. Either you folks are gifted with something really superior or the politics in your country has evolved to a stage where any condemnation of israel is considered unacceptable. It is you and your nation that are thoroughly manipulated. It is for you to consider."

You have again pointed out another "fundamental" US flaw. No doubt we many and I don't object to legitimate criticism. However, I have not implied anywhere in this thread that the US does not support Israel. Nor do I personally know anyone who would make such a claim. Again, please provide an example and source for your allegations.

4. "I will ignore all your personal comments that were not required at all----> "nonsense", "Kool Aid", "laughable"..."

As well you should. In my defense, these remarks were to provide emphasis, nothing more. Go back and reread my post in the impersonal manner it was intended. Perhaps you'll see it in a different light...or perhaps not.

Ciao, Guido

#402
Gill
April 19, 2008
12:04 PM

Chandra

>>>>>The religious book and Israelis. The Israelis derive their legitimacy from a (comic) book and do so the missionaries in India.<<<<<

I still do not get it!!! Even Islam derives the legitimacy from the same book. So whats the difference

#403
Chandra
April 19, 2008
01:45 PM

Gill

OK, if you donot understand my point, let it make it simple --->

what is the basis of a white man's nation (read: israel) in the middle east?

#404
Chandra
April 19, 2008
01:54 PM

Guido

The chasm in perception is because of where you live. I donot wish to elaborate further. Your tirade against 'media' is a fundamental American problem.

The evidence you seek is very clear to see. As an example-->The presence of your troops or advisors in most of the nations mentioned indicates your level of involvement in these nations.

Look, you seem to have lost the central point. This is about your support of Israel and not about America. It appears from these discussions that I am one of 'those' Anti-American types who hates America. On the contrary I am one of those few who supported and still supports the Invasion of Iraq.

rgds

#405
commonsense
April 19, 2008
02:36 PM

Chandra:

1. "I think the American denial about what they control or donot control has always been a problem. Did I in my post say you control Sudan? Or did i say you control Sri Lanka or Thailand?"

Guido:

"Where did this come from? Did you read another post and assume it was mine? Where in this discussion do I mention the Sudan, Sri Lanka, or Thailand? Why are you reading things into my comments that are clearly not there? Provide the quote and comment number please."

Guido, you did not mention Sudan, Thailand, Sri Lanka. Chandra just wants to make the point these countries are not influenced my the american govt and defence in comparison to the other middle east countries. Sure the middle east countries listed by chandra do have elites who manipulate their populace, but they also have limits and these limits are strongly influenced by the American advisors, troops and "defense agreements" with the Americans. Sudan, Sri Lanka and Thailand do not have these. Maybe America does not control every facet of the middle eastern countries listed by Chandra, but it is quite obvoious to anyone that these countries are heavily influenced by the Americans and some are also "client regimes". There is no need to empirically support this point as it is self-evident, and not because God told us so!

#406
Guido
April 19, 2008
02:59 PM

"The chasm in perception is because of where you live. I donot wish to elaborate further."

Is it where "I" live...or where "you" live Chandra? I thought we were going to check our egos. That's called an egocentric view. I'm not getting personal, but it is what it is.

"Your tirade against 'media' is a fundamental American problem."

Tirade? Who's getting personal now? And yet another "fundamental" American problem. That's three fundamental American problems in two posts. Please explain how my tirade against media is a fundamental American problem.

"The evidence you seek is very clear to see. As an example-->The presence of your troops or advisors in most of the nations mentioned indicates your level of involvement in these nations"

So now its "most of the nations" and not the ones you listed. And it's "indicates your level of involvement", vise your previous claims that the US "controls" (your words) these countries. Am I to assume your waffling on your past statement?

The "evidence"...where? What evidence Chandra? Despite my honest efforts, I can't find any credible information supporting your claim. And you still have yet to provide anything other than your assertion.

"Look, you seem to have lost the central point. This is about your support of Israel and not about America."

You are the one who diverted this thread with your response #365 to my post #363. It was in that post that you made your unsupportable claims.

"It appears from these discussions that I am one of 'those' Anti-American types who hates America. On the contrary I am one of those few who supported and still supports the Invasion of Iraq."

Did I say that? Or even indicate it? And what does this statement have to do with the "central point".

You parcel out judgments and opinions freely, but fail to provide any reinforcing support. With each new post, you make new assertions. And when challenged, you first politely claim personal attack, and then you completely ignore every question.

With all due respect, I think I get the picture now. Perhaps in the future you should just ignore my posts. I'll return the favor.

Ciao, Guido

#407
Man Singh
URL
April 19, 2008
03:18 PM

Bhai Chandra # 397

Esa nahi hai. Look at ground reality.

Muslims have captured and converted our 400 Million people as per todays standard. they kileld atound 60-80 millions. They destroyed around 30,000 temples and converted them in to Mosques. they are doing so even today.

We supported Yasser Arafat, what we achieved? He simply went along Islamic brotherhood on Kashmir?

Christians acted crooked. They stolen our 20 Million people and brain washed 400 million to make them anti Hindu.

jews converted around 70-140 people in total and never acted against Indian interests?

Now tell me with whom you should go?

Chamdi doesn'nt come in to the picture. Chanadi of Isrealis and Palestenina sis the same. Whites are very clearly not priority here?

Enemy of enemy is friend Chandra Bhai. Tis was the logic that Inspaired netaji Bose to seek help from japan and Hitler and formual worked.

Weakened Britain could not hold empire any more and trick worked.

Same way here. Let's act wisely and not by secular propaganda. Evaluate properly who damaged your house more.

Befriend with least evil to neutralise higher evil and slowly eliminate the whole evil.

That's how I move. Interest of humanity is supreme for me and it is in the interest of humanity today to eliminate Jehadis terrorists from root.

Anybody helpful in doing that desrev my support.

Yes tomorrow you may find me against Zionists also once higher evil Jehadis are eliminated.

Can you tell me why 5 crore Hindus left in Pakistan in 1947 reduced to 0.5 crore today? What happened to them and where they went?

Now tell me how many palestenian civilians has been killed by isreali forces in total till date?

5000, 10,000 or how many?

4.5 crore Hindus disappeared from Pakistan? have ever counted?

Now evaluate who is higher evil and who should be eliminated first?
And same 5 Cr Muslims in india became 15 crore?

I am always against conversions using fraudulant means by missioneries or mullas (though voluntary intentional conversions are acceptable). However I feel that Judeo Chriatian jehaids are lesser eveil then Muslim jehadis.

#408
temporal
URL
April 19, 2008
03:27 PM

cs:

our friend here may yet again plead to be a plain joe simpleton ... he does the deer routine in headlights;)

Befriend with least evil to neutralise higher evil and slowly eliminate the whole evil. That's how I move. Interest of humanity is supreme for me...


above sounds like final solution

no wonder they have similar stripes

;)

#409
temporal
URL
April 19, 2008
03:38 PM

guido:

after# 386 ... #390 was yet another repetition

:)

one more time then?


these killing are going on NOW under our noses and while the kill ratio is approx 35:1....still i am against a SINGLE civilian death from any side


#410
Chandra
April 19, 2008
04:06 PM

Man Singh


I am sorry, i am not interested into getting into debates on christians versus muslims versus hindus versus Jews. My particular point was about Israel, the religious book and conversions. Let us stay there

rgds

#411
Chandra
April 19, 2008
04:18 PM

Guido

What has ego got to do with the statement about where YOU live. You live in America, America is the ONLY country that is BLIND supporter of Israel. I have lived in multiple countries- Western and Eastern, you get to hear all sides of the story, so unlike the US. The only man who raised the Israeli question was ex-President Carter and look at what the media did with him. So the difference in perception is clearly because of where you live. There is nothing egoistic about this.

You did attribute many of our 'mis-perecptions' to what our media told us. My point is it is the American media that is fundamentally screwed up on the Israeli question. Media outlets in other 'free' countries are not as screwed up.

With regards to my point about your troops presence in the middle east, you have not disputed my central point. You dont get to have your troops/ Navy in those countries unless you have substantial control. Since you donot dispute the fact that your troops and navy have bases and operate out of most countries in teh middle east, you would also accept the fact that you have substantial control over how the Governments in these countries behave.

I think I dont have the need to provide URLs with evidence of your troops in these countries. All you will have to do is visit your DOD web-site. :-). Do tell me if you are unale to find this information, i will provide you the URLs.

rgds



#412
Chandra
April 19, 2008
04:22 PM

Guido

Since you have been persisting with your desire to see 'evidence' of your control, i am willing to provide the same. Can you provide specific criteria that will demonstrate that the US controls a regime? I will then provide you information on the basis of that criteria. Of course donot come up with criteria like - Should use the American Flag or US selects their leader. Information that is not available in the public domain.

rgds

#413
Guido
April 19, 2008
04:57 PM

temporal writes: "these killing are going on NOW under our noses and while the kill ratio is approx 35:1....still i am against a SINGLE civilian death from any side"

Once again...I won't be lured into a quibbling endless quasi-debate that seeks to quantify atrocities and then determine the villain. We could add another 3 million posts to this thread citing tit-for-tat killings. This is exactly part of the problem. Pointless!

What part of that do you not understand?

Ciao, Guido

#414
temporal
URL
April 19, 2008
05:17 PM

guido:

ok i will write s l o w l y

bottom line

since these acts are happening under our "watch" we should take steps to "expose", "prevent" and "condemn" any and all civilian killings

***

every person on this planet has a right to live a life free of persecution and fear with full freedom and rights as enunciated under the UN charter of Human Rights

***

the above should also be applied to every civilian in the region that is under discussion - israel and occupied palestine

***

have a nice weekend:)

#415
Guido
April 19, 2008
05:30 PM

Commonsense #405. Sorry for not responding to this sooner.

I concur with your assessment, as I previously mentioned in the first sentence of my post #374:

"The US government has varying forms of influence on some of these countries...from allot to almost zero."

The reference to empirical information was in response to the statement made by Chandra in post # 401:

"[The] US "DIRECTLY CONTROLS TEH REGIMES OF SAUDI ARABIA, JORDAN, EGYPT, IRAQ, UAE, BAHRIAN, KUWAIT ETC ETC."

I standby my original answer that the statement is unbelievable...to put it nicely.

Ciao, Guido

#416
Guido
April 19, 2008
05:36 PM

temporal #414

Thank you for your patience. I agree, all the killings should stop and we should live in peace.

Ciao, Guido

#417
commonsense
April 19, 2008
08:46 PM

Temporal,

Yeah. A number of obsessions, when it comes to foaming and frothing, are evident. Recurring refrains of:

Ruvvy: conversations with God and chunks of quotes from his religious texts as substitutes for truth.

Man Singh: "Well I am just a simple village boys who wants to know what should one do if one's village is attacked by dacoits...."

Gill: Something called "dhimmitude"

#418
Ruvy
April 20, 2008
06:57 PM

Man Singh,

I've been away from the computer all this time because of PessaH and the Sabbath. I do not get on a computer during holy days. The Sabbath is the holiest day of the Jewish year. PessaH is the festival celebrating and remembering our liberation from slavery in Egypt.

Reviewing the arguments cited here, I've been noting your comments in particular.

Chandra can't stand having reality pointed out:

Note:
I am sorry, I am not interested into getting into debates on Christians versus Muslims versus Hindus versus Jews. My particular point was about Israel, the religious book and conversions. Let us stay there....

Those are the words of someone losing an argument.

I see that nobody has answered your arguments - particularly about India getting nothing for supporting Arafat and his murderers. That's because they haven't got an answer.

Thank you for the kind words of support, my friend. They are appreciated.

The news (from Debkafiles supports your view of reality.

First Hamas offensive using two car-bombs, two armored cars is repulsed by Israeli troops

April 19, 2008, 6:23 PM (GMT+02:00)

Three blew up, one was captured. Eight soldiers were injured, two seriously, in the broad Hamas bomb-car, mortar offensive from Kerem Shalom at the southernmost tip of the Gaza-Israeli border to Kissufim in the north. At least four Palestinians were killed.

In the first attack of its kind from Gaza, Hamas used two explosives-packed jeeps and two armored vehicles. The jeeps detonated by suicide drivers broke through to the Israeli side of the Kerem Shalom goods crossing early Saturday, April 19. Terrorists jumped out of the first armored vehicle under cover of the explosion, mortar fire and heavy mist, and attacked the Israeli position guarding the terminal. This vehicle painted in IDF colors was captured and the assailants thrown back.

After the attack, southern front commander Maj.-Gen Galant praised the IDF for foiling a major Palestinian strategic attack on Israel intended to kill and abduct soldiers.

Israeli soldiers thwarted an attempt by a band of terrorists to cross into Israel, attack Kibbutz Kerem Shalom and kidnap Israeli soldiers and civilians.

The Israeli population in areas abutting the Gaza Strip was told to stay indoors under cover for fear of further terrorist incursions.

The second armored vehicle, rigged with explosives, headed for the Kissufim crossing further north. Israeli tank fire blew it up before it reached its target. The Israel air force retaliated with a heavy bombardment over the Gaza Strip. This was the first time terrorists managed to spirit any bomb vehicles to the Israel side of a border crossing.

Two days ago, dozens of Israeli trucks bringing food and essential supplies to the Kerem Shalom goods crossing for the Palestinian population came under fire and turned back. Then, too, Israeli troops thwarted an attempted incursion, one of several staged in the last two weeks by Hamas-led gunmen. Last week, three Israeli soldiers were killed and three injured in a Hamas attack in the Be'eri-Alumim region, following the murder of two Israeli civilians employed at the Nahal Oz terminal through which Gaza receives its energy supplies.


[This paragraph above in bold shows what truly genocidal bastards we Jews are - or more precisely why those who accuse us of genocide are liars]

Friday, 10 Palestinian missiles were fired from Gaza, five exploding in Sderot. One started a fire near a school where children were playing outside, another hit a high-voltage line and darkened the town for several hours. Israeli civilian locations have been subjected to missile and mortar attack the whole week.

In Damascus, former US president Jimmy Carter met again with Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal Saturday morning after their four-hour conversation Friday night.

They were reported discussing a lull in Hamas attacks on Israel from Gaza and terms for the release of the Israeli soldier Gilead Shalit kidnapped by Hamas-led gunman nearly two years ago.


After 415 comments, I'm calling it a day on this particular thread. I'm sure my latest post will arouse further comments by the Jew-hating Arab ass kissers, Anamika, Temporal, and Chandra, and by that self-important fool "commonsense" (cough, gag, barf).

They can have the last word. I've said what I had to say and HAVE NOT BEEN REFUTED, only attacked and ridiculed by liars and fools.

#419
commonsense
April 20, 2008
07:59 PM

Ruvvy:

"I've said what I had to say and HAVE NOT BEEN REFUTED, only attacked and ridiculed by liars and fools....(Four dots, right english tutor?)and by that self-important fool "commonsense" (cough, gag, barf)."

Those who invoke the unadulterated words of God cannot be refuted. A classic example of a self-fulfilling prophecy. So, you do have the last word, even though you are talking to yourself.

#420
commonsense
April 20, 2008
08:11 PM

Ruvvy:

"I've been away from the computer all this time because of PessaH and the Sabbath. I do not get on a computer during holy days. The Sabbath is the holiest day of the Jewish year. PessaH is the festival celebrating and remembering our liberation from slavery in Egypt.""

How interesting! Nothing like a free tutorial tacked on to a parting shot! However, with my appetite now suitably whetted, perhaps a larger post on PessaH? Please, please?

#421
commonsense
April 20, 2008
08:16 PM

Ruvy from Jerusalem:

"They can have the last word. I've said what I had to say and HAVE NOT BEEN REFUTED"

Dil ko bahlaney key liye
Khayal acchha hai mullah Ruvy

(not a literal translation, but...(oops 3 dots!)

A nice thought mullah ruvy
Since self-delusion is still your ultimate goal

#422
Anamika
April 20, 2008
08:44 PM

Ruvy - "....liberation from slavery in egypt"

DAMN those Muslims....even BEFORE the Prophet they were busy enslaving and killing the Jews.

Btw, any evidence beyond the comic book that there was this "Egyptian slavery" or are we still listening to the word of god?

#423
temporal
URL
April 20, 2008
11:36 PM

ana:

asking the plebeian for evidence?

;)

you must have read the "traitor"?

Every year I marvel again at the genius of this ceremony. It unites the whole family, and everyone - from the venerable grandfather to the smallest child - has a role in it. It engages all the senses: seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching. The simplistic text of the Haggadah, the book which is read aloud, the symbolic food, the four glasses of wine, the singing together, the exact repetition of every part every year - all these imprint on the consciousness of a child from the earliest age an ineradicable memory that they will carry with them to the grave, be they religious or not. They will never forget the security and warmth of the large family around the Seder table, and even in old age they will recall it with nostalgia. A cynic might see it as a perfect example of brain-washing.

Compared to the power of this myth, does it really matter that the Exodus from Egypt never took place? Thousands of Egyptian documents deciphered in recent years leave no room for doubt: the exodus of masses of people, as described in the Bible, or anything remotely like it, just never happened. These documents, which cover in the finest detail every period and every part of Canaan during this epoch prove beyond any doubt that there was no "Conquest of Canaan" and no kingdom of David and Solomon. For a hundred years, Zionist archeologists have devoted tireless efforts to finding even a single piece of evidence to support the Biblical narrative, all to no avail.
it is worth reading in full - link here

#424
Anamika
April 21, 2008
05:08 AM

Temp bhai - kya karen, aadat se majboor hain...when i got "brain-washed" in the six darshans, the only methodology was to ask questions and insist on evidence (an odd way of learning philosophy/religion I have since realised). so comic book or not - have to ask for proof.

funny how fundamentalists/fanatics of all ilk insist on the material and literal truth of their perspective gods/religion etc.

i laughed at that piece by Avnery and am waiting for the frothing at the mouth to begin again....

#425
commonsense
April 21, 2008
08:24 AM

"After 415 comments, I'm calling it a day on this particular thread."

Promise? This is what you said a few months ago, and Anamika had bet everyone that you'd be back. No prizes for guessing whether she was right or not. This time you are a bit too modest, ie. you promise to disappear from this thread, not DC. Your choice, it's a free world. Not that you are unwelcome, but when you do get back, and you will, please bring your brains back with you and leave your G-d (with all due and undue respect to him, her or it as the case maybe) behind in the privacy of your own delusions. Thanks for reminding me of the three dots or was it four?? Peace. Get some counselling or medication... (three dots, right?)

.

#426
Man Singh
URL
April 21, 2008
02:03 PM

Anamika # 424

Though `evidence' is the only way to prove the truthfulness of some statement. A scinetific mind will never accept anything without evidence and that also a `cross verifiable evidence'.

However there are certain `truths' beyong logic and evidence. I'll give examples.

1. Can anybody produce an `evidence' that somebody existed in his/her family 10 generations before? As during those days there were no municiplaities, passports or birth certificates or school leaving certificates to keep a record of them or photography and video recordings etc were unknows.

Other then the fact that I exist and hence my father, his father , his father and and and .. and definitely my 10 generation before forfathers existed.

This is common sense and I am the only evidence to prove existence of my forfathers. But it is not a `scientific cross verifiable' evidence as per definition. Still I know my forfathers existed even without their birth certificates.

Now look another scenerio. I own a house. I bought it cash down.

My house was raided by dacoits and put to fire and all papers related to house burnt out.

Some of the files were lost when Registra's office was being shifted from Meerut inside city to kankarkheda open area and my file was also there. Can I prove ownership of this house anyway as Electricity and telephone bills can have same address even for those who ever rented this house.

Do I have any `evidence' to prove ownership of my house?

Taxila was put to fire and so was Nalanda where hundereds of thousands of books containing `evidence' were purnt to ashes.

Alexendria was also burnt by fanatics eliminating hude chunk of ancinet knowledge from face of this earth.

The only way to know about those days is what people transfered from generations to generations.

Historians never find many things of interest in many events and they ignore them. It doesn mean that they never occured.

Look at story of Veer Haqiqat Rai who was hanged to death for so called blashphemy. You will find this story in heart of people but not in history books. Where is the evidence?

For Jalianwala bagh case, British fabricated the `intelligence' reports send to London during the case being heard in court and proved with these so caleld `evidence' that Dr Kichlu was in Amritsar on that day to frame him.

Truth is that he was not and all witnesses and intelligence reports were false. People like you after 500 years will belive what evidence say?

I will belive what my parents will tell me what he heard from his parents.

Sameway slavery in Egypt may be a story without evidence (or evidence burtnt in library of alexendra), I fully allow jews to belive whatever their victimised forfathers say.

Is fanatics like Ahamdinejad becaome world rulers they will propagate Hitler never killed Jews in camps and after few hundred years people like you will belive Ahamdinejad's view of history in which haulocast is fictious event.

It is happening in India Anamika. Murderer of Guru Arjan Dev `jehangir' is being taught as a great man having a deep know;edge of arts music and panitings.

Tyrant Augangjeb is being titles as `Alamgir' which means a man of justice in spite of the fact that he brutally murederd one of the greatest saint Guru Teg Bahadur and burn alive even two minor children of Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj in wall of Sarhind.

Akbar is being taught as `Akbar the great' in Indian history books in spite of the existence of Akabr's official records in which he re-imposed Zaziya tax on Hindus and used the most offensive language worst then worst fanatics .

"Abu'l-qasim Namakin, Munsha'iit-i Nantakin, Aligarh MS, ff. 26a-
32a. 'As directed by the word of God', Akbar claims, 'we, as far as it is within
our power, remain busy in jihiid and owing to the kindness of the supreme Lord,
who is the promoter of our victories, we have succeeded in occupying a number
of forts and towns belonging to the infidels and have established Islam there.
With the help of our bloodthirsty sword we have rased the signs of infidelity
from their minds and have destroyed temples in those places and also all over
Hindustan."

"Muntakl?ah-ut-Tawiirikl~, 11, 210. 'During the same period (983tI) (the
Emperor) directed Shaikh 'Abd al-Nabi and Makhdum al-Mulk to investigate
and reimpose (muqarrar siiklztand) the jizya on Hindus. Far11dn.s to this effect
were sent on all sides."

From `India's Islamic Traditions' (711 To 1750) By EM Eaton : Oxford University Press (page no. 130-131)

Curent generation of Indian kids hardly knows these Tyrants jehangir, Akbar and Aurangjeb as good human beings who showed little fanaticism sometime out of compulsion.

Such is the power of evidence Anamika?

"Untill Lions have their own historians, history of hunt will glorify the hunters"

It is happening in India to Hindus and why not for jews. Therefore what Ruvy says even without evidence may contain grains of truth vis a vis imperiliats hunters history with `evidence'.

Rebellion ideologies always try to `demonise' native cultures whenever in power. It is like run away child always finding faults with parents in justifying his actions.

same way jews and Hindus are demonsed by gangs of rebellion ideologies of Mulla, missioneries and communists.

Let me repeat again that I am against aby brutality by anybody and in any form as `daya' (Kindlness( is the one of the 4 legs of Pauranic secred Bull used as creative symbol of Dharma and any cruel act is to be condemned.

However formula should be applicable on all including imperilaists and jehaids and those who carry pit attacks on innocent Isrealis while hiding behind refugee children and women in Burqa are more denounceable.

#427
Chandra
April 21, 2008
02:54 PM

Man Singh

Can you tell me where it has been shown that PLO was against India with respect to Kashmir?

rgds

#428
commonsense
April 21, 2008
07:23 PM

Man Singh,

when you eventually wander back towards a hint of reason, and you just might, could you entertain the possibility of non-repetitive brevity too?

#429
temporal
URL
April 21, 2008
09:33 PM

cs:

where is the quote from in 425?

#430
commonsense
April 22, 2008
02:57 AM

Temp,

from ruvvy # 418, if you scroll down the usual delusional rant,towards the end....second last para

#431
temporal
URL
April 22, 2008
03:06 AM

cs:

thanks ... i missed that

aaman:

check out the cowardly name calling and abuse in 418 by the wannabee kahanee


#432
Anamika
April 22, 2008
05:04 AM

temp bhai: re 418, I have reached a point of ignoring namecalling from the aforesaid kahanee but yes alongside "dhimmitude" (a slighly more polite way of saying exactly the same thing), this thread is a disturbing example in itself of Islamophobia...

#433
commonsense
April 22, 2008
07:44 AM

Anamika:

""this thread is a disturbing example in itself of Islamophobia...""

Yep, despite and indeed because of, the attempts by kahanee to convert this into a discussion about alleged anti-Semitism....

#434
temporal
URL
April 22, 2008
10:44 AM

did you read about this ana?

A pro-Israel pressure group is orchestrating a secret, long-term campaign to infiltrate the popular online encyclopedia Wikipedia to rewrite Palestinian history, pass off crude propaganda as fact, and take over Wikipedia administrative structures to ensure these changes go either undetected or unchallenged.

A series of emails by members and associates of the pro-Israel group CAMERA (Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America), provided to The Electronic Intifada (EI), indicate the group is engaged in what one activist termed a "war" on Wikipedia.

#435
Man Singh
URL
April 22, 2008
11:55 AM

Bhai Commonsense # 428

Main gaon ka kam padha likha balak itni complicated english nahi samajh paata hoon. Haan kaam chalau chal jaata hai.

Please elaborate in simple words what's your advise to me. I know you are a man of commonsense and will not mind my above request.

#436
Man Singh
URL
April 22, 2008
12:03 PM

Bhai Commonsense # 428

Main gaon ka kam padha likha balak itni complicated english nahi samajh paata hoon. Haan kaam chalau chal jaata hai.

Please elaborate in simple words what's your advise to me. I know you are a man of commonsense and will not mind my above request.

Temp # 434

Bhai temp, Indian history has been completely distorted by communists and congress. They have projected tyrants like jehamgir, Akbar and Aurangjeb as `art lover', `the Great' and `alamgir' and fileld chapters on them while Indian heroes who fought againt their tyranny like Pratap, Shivaji, Guru Teg bahadur, Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj etc has been narrowed to few lines in chapters named after tyrrants.

For India , Gurudwara Sheeshganj should be a national monument where Guru Teg Sahadur sacrificed his life or Lal Qila a symbol of slavery?

If Pro Isreali lobby is also doing its bit to in order to keep its land what's wrong in it.

One more thing , This conflict is not between palesteninas and Isreal, it is between Muslims fanatics of Palestenins and secular Isreal exactly as Kashmir struggle is not between Kashmiris and Indians, it is conflict between `Kashmiri Muslism' and `secular India' no matter pro jehadi media says?

Bhai Chandra # 427

I remember this somewhere in 1983. Some resolution on Kashmir in UNO and Palestenian representative sided with Muslims countries and Iraq was only exception. I'll try to search the link and share with you as soon as possible.

#437
commonsense
April 22, 2008
09:48 PM

Bhai Man Singh,

Keep fighting dacoits is all i can say!

#438
Anamika
April 23, 2008
05:29 AM

After all that talk of dacoits and Islamic fanatics and thieves, just something to put human faces and names to those so described:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/portal/main.jhtml?xml=/portal/2008/04/23/ftgaza123.xml

Ironic that its from a conservative newspaper...

#439
Ayan Roy
April 23, 2008
05:57 AM

#438 - Heart wrenching, that photograph.

All I can say is that organized religion and socio-political ideology are the biggest evils for Mankind, surpassing even the greed for money.

It blinds people to different viewpoints, and finally blinds one to the other's pain and misery.

I don't know if this is nature's cruel way of keeping human population under control, by making people kill each other for flimsy reasons.

Love an peace to all,
Ayan

#440
Gill
April 23, 2008
10:37 AM

#438

Nice try!!!! But you failed to mention that stone throwing kids are the "frontline" soldiers for "Intifida"!!!!

#439
If "religion" is all evil" than I guess "Maoism" and "communism" is the answer!!!

But again whats happening in "Tibet"??????

#441
Man Singh
URL
April 23, 2008
11:16 AM

Bhai Comonsense #437

aapki bhi to help chahiye. Without `commonsense' we can not beat them back.

Yadi dil ki baat janna chahte ho to ye hai ki

Dacoits should abandon dacoity , apologise for their past sins and start living a normal life along with their fellow villagers. Wherever possible return the looted belongings of villagers.

Villagers on their part should forgive them if they sincerely repent for their deeds.


#442
Man Singh
URL
April 23, 2008
01:12 PM

#438

Scene relly is pathetic. Definitely these young humans deserve much better. And there is no point of any disagreement on this.

But emotions do not solve the problems though they lay the foundation and motivation for the solutions.

How to solve the problem? How to stop such killings?

There are ways :

1. Isreal should allow its people to get killed by missiles fired by Jehadis like India does. Allow its own people get killed and save the children of those who support jehadis. India does that and result is there. 28% of land and 40% of its population has been lost to jehadis in last 1000 years. Still dream of Jehadis is unfullfilled. They want more more and more. More you give more they want. Keep on giving and squeeze yourself. They will never stop their attacks even if Isreal surrender whole land to them. They will demand conversion of Jews to islam after capturing their lands as next step to make peace.

2. Isreal should carry out a full fledged attack and carry out a combing operation there and eliminate jehadis forever. But problem is these so called civilians make a human shield around these jehadis?

I request the writers here to come up with solutions and not merely charge the envirnment with emotions.

Indians gave 28% land to jehadis in 1947 whose legitimate share was merely 24%(as per population).

half of muslims remaned in india and efefectively 12% Muslims are enjoying 28% land.

In spite of such generous dealing from india's side, jehadis are demanding kashmir now.

Give Kashmir today they'll demand Punjab and list with continue and every 50 years give new chunk of land if yoiu wnat to buy peace with them. `land for peace' is their open slogan.

Kosovo is recent example how a cultural and religious place for serbs has been reduced to a `serb minority' area by conversion , terror and illegal infiltration within 50 years and now Jehaids have snatched away that chunk of land.

Friends , how to minimise the damage? How to protect humanity from jehadis and their associates?

India has witnessed this Jehaid terror since 713 AD till date. Whenever we try to silence the jehaids `civilians' come for their rescue and we become helpless?

If we beat civilians protectimng jehaids world condemns us for torturing civilians.

If we spare Jehaidis they create naked dance of killing innocent people, bomb blasts, abductions rape and conversions. And we get nothing but condolence letters from some countries.

India values condolences more then life of its people.

Isreal values life of its people more then condemnations.

Is there any better way we can propose here so that kiler jehadis can be eliminated and civilians acting as human shields to jehaids also can be saved?

Please come up with solutions how a police officer should deal with a situation where civilians are surrounding terrorists intentionally?

I am sure some well wishers of Jehaids will keep mum when question comes how to deal with situation?


#443
Anamika
April 23, 2008
02:27 PM

#442: "Indians gave 28% land to jehadis in 1947 whose legitimate share was merely 24%(as per population). half of muslims remaned in india and efefectively 12% Muslims are enjoying 28% land."

The yet-again-FINAL solution: India should do what Israel does - force ALL Muslims to leave and if they don't, well, put them in concentration camps and kill them slowly - in "counter-terrorist operations," by sonic weapons, starvation and other methods.

The leaders of India should have learned from Israel and declared in 1947 the imprisonment, torture and killing of Indian "jihadis" to be an special act of patriotism to be rewarded immediately with the Padmashri.

The following incomplete hit list of Indian jihadis dates back to 1947 but the torture, jailing, expulsion and murder of any of these should be deserving of the Param Vir Chakra: APJ Abdul Kalam, Syed Kirmani, Nawab Pataudi, Irfan Pathan, Azim Premji, Shahrukh Khan, Nargis, Meena Kumari, K.Asif, Mehboob Khan, Dilip Kumar, Bismillah Khan, Ustad Allah Rakha, Zakir Hussain, the soldiers for the JAKLIs, and this is just the start...

See the ways "jihadis" damaged India? We should do EXACTLY what Hitler did, and Israel is doing...jai Hind!

#444
commonsense
April 23, 2008
02:48 PM

Man Singh,

Have you written any poems about dacoits and innocent villagers?

#445
Ruvy
April 23, 2008
02:53 PM

Anamika writes,

Btw, any evidence beyond the comic book that there was this "Egyptian slavery" or are we still listening to the word of god?

Temporal writes:
check out the cowardly name calling and abuse in 418 by the wannabee kahanee.

CS writes:
Ruvvy: conversations with God and chunks of quotes from his religious texts as substitutes for truth.

and,
Yep, despite and indeed because of, the attempts by kahanee to convert this into a discussion about alleged anti-Semitism...

Finally, Chandra writes:
what is the basis of a white man's nation (read: Israel) in the middle east?

THIS IS THE ANSWER FOR THE LOT OF YOU.

THIS IS MY COUNTRY, ALL OF IT, GIVEN TO ME BY THE G-D OF ISRAEL, THE G-D OR THE UNIVERSE, AND I'LL DIE BEFORE I'M DRIVEN OUT OF IT. AND I DON'T GIVE A DAMN WHAT YOU ALL THINK.


Aaman, if you want me off the list for responding manfully to liars, scorners and their contempt, just send the e-mail.

#446
temporal
URL
April 23, 2008
03:12 PM

thanks ana:

THIS is more powerful than any kahaane spin

sadly it is just a matter of time when hamas learns to use "flechettes"

This one contained hundreds of inch-long steel darts, known as flechettes (French for little arrows). They make disarmingly small entry wounds but do terrible damage once inside the human body. Khalil was hit by several, but the one that killed him punctured his heart.


and then these latter day nazis would cry foul and go into victimology bhangRa

#447
commonsense
April 23, 2008
03:17 PM

When a "manful" LAST word isn't quite the last word. Anamika is itching to exclaim "I told you so!".

Exhibit #1

Ruvy:

""After 415 comments, I'm calling it a day on this particular thread. I'm sure my latest post will arouse further comments by the Jew-hating Arab ass kissers, Anamika, Temporal, and Chandra, and by that self-important fool "commonsense" (cough, gag, barf).

They can have the last word. I've said what I had to say""

And, a couple of days later, as predicted by Anamika and that pompous liar "commonsense"...

Exhibit #2:

Ruvvy:

""THIS IS MY COUNTRY, ALL OF IT, GIVEN TO ME BY THE G-D OF ISRAEL, THE G-D OR THE UNIVERSE, AND I'LL DIE BEFORE I'M DRIVEN OUT OF IT. AND I DON'T GIVE A DAMN WHAT YOU ALL THINK.""

So the commonsensical questions naturally arises, at least for someone whose nick is commonsense: if you really "DON'T GIVE A DAMN WHAT YOU ALL THINK" why does our manful friend even bother to boast about his special relationship with God? As well, why does somebody with a nick like commonsense even bother to tangle with someone who received some real estate directly from the one and only true God? And, what would "ALL OF IT" mean? Simply "Greater Israel" or even more than that a so-called security buffer? And, did God, while presenting our friend with land, did not have the wherewithal to delineate its borders? (Prediction: either extensive quotes from the Torah or extensive meditations on dacoits/villagers from Man Singh) Questions, more questions!

#448
commonsense
April 23, 2008
03:26 PM

Ruvy:

""THIS IS MY COUNTRY, ALL OF IT, GIVEN TO ME BY THE G-D OF ISRAEL, THE G-D OR THE UNIVERSE, AND I'LL DIE BEFORE I'M DRIVEN OUT OF IT. AND I DON'T GIVE A DAMN WHAT YOU ALL THINK.""

Calm down son! Can you set the above quote in rhyme?

Temporal, can you help out here?

#449
temporal
URL
April 23, 2008
03:50 PM

cs:

aapka huk'm ser aankhouN per


this god is my god
this god is my god
from the ovens of auschwitz
to the ghettos of west bank
this god is my god
this god is my god
i may chose to dance naked
in the wild heat of negev
i may chose to ghettoise
thos damn camel jockeys
this god is my god
this god is my god
i am hitler incarnate
and falistinis be damned
this god is my god
this god is my god

(feel free to add ....)

;)



#450
Gill
April 23, 2008
03:55 PM

Anamika wrote

>>>>>>The leaders of India should have learned from Israel and declared in 1947 the imprisonment, torture and killing of Indian "jihadis" to be an special act of patriotism to be rewarded immediately with the Padmashri. <<<<<<

Once again what are you talking about!!!!!

Please stop twisting facts on India only to satisfy your anti-Semitic and pro-Palestinian notions!!! There is no comparision of Isreal to India or relationship to muslim in socio-political sense either!!

Muslims were rulers and Hindus were under Islams subjugation for over 1000yrs. And even in 47 it was the "Muslims" under the pretext of "Islam" ... who "FORCED" a bloody partition and creation of "Islamic lands" sanctioned in the name of Allah and their prophet and book!!!!!!!

Fact is that Hindus were and are way too "Weak" in terms of social integration and institutions even to defend themselves let alone "trying to dominate" Islam in any shape of form.......... And lets not ignore the fact that Islam is way more Powerful, larger and resourceful than all Indic Dharmas combined.

As such the above remarks do not make any sense!!!!!!

Anamika wrote

>>>>>> The following incomplete hit list of Indian jihadis dates back to 1947 but the torture, jailing, expulsion and murder of any of these should be deserving of the Param Vir Chakra: APJ Abdul Kalam, Syed Kirmani, Nawab Pataudi, Irfan Pathan, Azim Premji, Shahrukh Khan, Nargis, Meena Kumari, K.Asif, Mehboob Khan, Dilip Kumar, Bismillah Khan, Ustad Allah Rakha, Zakir Hussain, the soldiers for the JAKLIs, and this is just the start...
See the ways "jihadis" damaged India? We should do EXACTLY what Hitler did, and Israel is doing...jai Hind!<<<<<<<<<<<

"Hit list" only Islamists and Commies believe and work on this concept of "elimination" of "opponents"!!!! After all they are both fundamentalists and fanatics.. one for Islam and Jihad and other for ideology and revolution!!!! And now it seems you are creating a "hit list" by proxy maybe at behest of "Islamists". Lets deviate and cause chaos on non-issues!!

By the way

Interesting list you have presented!!!! Out of 170 million you could only come up with "entertainers".

BY the way can you please elaborate on what these people in list have done for "changing Muslim attitude" towards Hindus or how they perceive Islam in their daily life and Islam in socio-political reality ????

The best one is Nawab Pataudi - Now what has he done????? Except ofcourse marrying Tagores grand daughter and converting her to Islam... Can you please really let us know anything else????

None of them have ever propagated against the "ills" in their own "society"!!!! Let it be Muslim women equal rights, Madrasa culture or even Talibination of poor muslim communities in India, or propagation of militant islam by insitutions of jamaat or deoband or other institutions.

The irony of the list is that majority of muslims in India are not even allowed to enjoy the mentioned peoples entertainment works because Mullahs and Islam "forbids" it.....

By the way I had said before also that Indian Muslim community is the most accessible in the Muslim world and sadly nothing has been achieved.

Sadly the reasons are all evident in your remarks and the list you have provided!!!!!! Deviation at best work for the Islamists be their frontline soldiers by proxy!!!!

PS By the way Zakhir Hussain is responsible for all that is going on in Assam etc... and yes religion and ethnicity was played by him in a major way in the creation of that problem. Please familiarize yourself with realities first!!!

#451
commonsense
April 23, 2008
04:00 PM

Hey Temp, thanks a ton!! This land is indeed my land!!

Gill, how about you? Can you set your prosaic output above in rhyme?

#452
Gill
April 23, 2008
04:08 PM

Sorry

God only makes appointments with "people of the book" only!!!!!!

#453
Gill
April 23, 2008
05:13 PM

#443

As per Home Ministry there are 175 terror groups active in India. And the very latest addition is

Dukhtaran-e-Millat, an all-women organisation that exerts community pressures to further social norms dictated by Islamic fundamental groups.

Now can you please let me know at least one of the people from the list you created are or have been doing anything to stop such organization or even educating their communities against them? What role are they playing?

By the way why was Taslima thrown out of India????? Isn't it that Islamists were on the streets and claimed she was anti-islam???? Why didn't anyone from your list came out and asked their fellow co-religionists not to defame Islam and tried teaching them tolerance??? And eventually help Taslima after all she was suffering in the name of Islam!!!!

It does make one wonder!!!!! The list can go on and on too!!!

#454
Man Singh
URL
April 23, 2008
05:54 PM

# 443

Its huge surprise for me reading your post.

I am shocked to see that you can not differentiate between jehadis, Artist and Scientists. You are putting them equal. What an extra ordinary analystical atelent is working here. I wonder how your consciousness can allow to call people like " APJ Abdul Kalam, Syed Kirmani, Nawab Pataudi, Irfan Pathan, Azim Premji, Shahrukh Khan, Nargis, Meena Kumari, K.Asif, Mehboob Khan, Dilip Kumar, Bismillah Khan, Ustad Allah Rakha, Zakir Hussain" jehadis.

That's where exactly my point is. I focus on Jehadis who committed crime against humanity all through history and you are trying to cover up the crimes of jehadis by garbs of scinetists and artists.

I am refering to Auranjeb and you are putting clothes of Darashikoh Anamika to defend Aurangjeb.

isn'nt it funny?

Yes its always `better safe then sorry' in my opinion. India is bleeding and allowing its citizens get butured by jehadis is a sad story and of course opinions of people like you futher enhance the courage of Jehadis.

If our ruling class is happy with death and destruction of its people, let's celebrate.

Yes Anamika cruel Jehadis don'nt deserve mercy. India has seen their misdeeds fro last 1000 years. If India wants to defend itself from clutches of Jehaids, it has to deal toughly with them.

Else be ready to get hit perpetually.

And please for sake of humanity `stop equating jehaids, artists and scientists'.

I mentioned here so many times that i am not against any particular religion. I am against any groups of people irrespective of religious background who have a tendency to encroach on others belongings. Jehadis among Muslims and missioneries(not all Muslims) among christians (not all christians).
Hope things are clear.

Most amusing part is that no sympathiser of Jehadis so far has come up with any idea how Indian Army should deal with terrorists firing missiles on Indians while being shieledd by `civilians'?

Please come up with practical ideas other then what Indian government is doing today ie allow Jehadis kill Indians. Our blood is cheap. No worries.



#455
Man Singh
URL
April 23, 2008
06:06 PM

# 444 Bhai commonsense,

Dakuoan se ladne vaale haath kalam badi mushkil se chala paate hai. Dil me feelings to bahut hai parantu roji roti kamane me poetry ke liye time kahan.

Moreover writing poety will not solve the problem of villagers being attacked by dacoits so frequently.

Nehru wrote Poerty on Kashmir and it is bleeding till date at hands of jehadis.

Patel took decisive action and solved 561 cases of Indian riyasat integration program.

I am not here to attack anybody my freind. i am here to defend myself or beat back those who attack my village.

I am surprised though what makes people to side with dacoits and ridicule villagers engaged in merely defending themselves.

#456
commonsense
April 23, 2008
10:57 PM

Man Singh:

"I am surprised though what makes people to side with dacoits and ridicule villagers engaged in merely defending themselves."

sometimes dacoits can be a congenial lot. besides they love besan ka laddoos, if you offer them some. try it next time....

#457
commonsense
April 23, 2008
11:04 PM

Gill:

""Fact is that Hindus were and are way too "Weak" in terms of social integration and institutions even to defend themselves let alone "trying to dominate" Islam in any shape of form.......... And lets not ignore the fact that Islam is way more Powerful, larger and resourceful than all Indic Dharmas combined.

As such the above remarks do not make any sense!!!!!!""

Gill, if the above remarks don't make sense, and I agree with you for once, why on earth did you write them in the first place??

Can you write some poetry. If not, how about some pottery?

#458
commonsense
April 23, 2008
11:22 PM

Ruvvy:

""Resident Arabs should and would be treated with the respect they are due as free individuals, ex-pats with rights to live here.""

This gem about arabs as "ex-pats" in Israel is hidden in one of our friend's long posts..."ex-pats"!! and our friend is from NY via Ukraine...umm, but God promised him something different...How does one spell chuptzah??!!!!!!

#459
Anamika
April 24, 2008
04:55 AM

CS: Wasn't itching but nearly jumping up and down - so let me say it: maine kahaa tha na!

Sick that personal/regional hatred and ignorance for Muslims on part of some people on this board manages to justify Israel's genocide in the ME. But then, these are the people who insist that Israel has the "right" to retaliate by using state-of-art weaponry against "frontline" of kids throwing rocks. Reminds me of the time a bunch of similar nutters supported shooting down civilians gathering in Jallianwala bagh too!!





#460
Ayan Roy
April 24, 2008
05:47 AM

@Mr./Ms. Gill, #440

I also mentioned "socio-political" ideology, which includes all sorts of "-isms": communism, facism, etc. Any "-cracy" or "-ism" which denies humans their fundamental rights and freedom, and is severly intolerant of differences in opinion, culture and lifestyle is very bad, in my opinion. The current Chinese government too falls in my bad books because of this reason.

In fact it is difficult to find any government/religion in this world which is totally free of all discrimination, suppression and violence of any kind.

From most of your responses, it seems you do not read what others post carefully, and consider what they say, rationally. It seems you are blinded by strong biases and prejudices, have SELECTIVE eyesight, and quickly categorize people into "FOR" or "AGAINST"; indulge in personal attacks; and try to blast your point in everytime.
The world is not so bad, Mr./Ms. Gill. Try to be nice to people, and be a bit open minded.

Love and peace to all,
Ayan

#461
commonsense
April 24, 2008
05:58 AM

Anamika,

Yes indeed, aapney awashya kaha thaa...

I do hope our friend, since he is back to his default, foaming and frothing state, is being nice to his family this time!

Away from the net for a week or so! (Our friend foams with relief)

#462
Gill
April 24, 2008
11:45 AM

CS

Like once a wise man said

__Laughing at our mistakes can lengthen our own life. Laughing at someone else's can shorten it__

#463
Man Singh
URL
April 24, 2008
01:54 PM

Bhai Commonsense #456

I leave it to you to offer besan ka laddoo to dacoits attacking your house and playing with dignity of your family along with looting your belongings.

I will shoot them and kick them out of my house upto best of my capacity.

Anamika # 459 none of writers here came up with a ptactical idea how to a security officer should deal with terrorists firing missiles in civilians while surrounded by `children' with stones in the hands.

Isreal is using state of the art weaponry to minimise the casualities of civilians. If a Muslim country might have been there in place of Isreal, it could have bombed the whole refugee camp as as per islamic laws `civilians' shielding fighters are no more to be considered as civilians.

isreali establishment is kind enough to spare these `civilian fighters' in spite of being capable to wipe out them all. In place of being thanksful for its kindness, we are here `demonising' the kind defender using technology to protect `lesser criminals'.

Comparing jaliyavala bagh event with Israel defence is altogather nonsense and irrational.

Did a single fire was ever shot fron jaliyavalan bagh gathering on British or anybody? From Palestenian refugee camps firing of missiles is everyday affair and terrorists are shielded by Burqa covered women and `stone' carrying children.

How crook? Most agonising part is inability of even educated people to understand the game plane of a crooked gang of criminals whose ideology cause termendous bloodshed in India also for last 1000 years.

We have lost our commonsense, the intellectual ability to determine if a `jeahadi' engaged in looting killing abducting ,raping and converting non muslims deserve `kindness' oe not?

Our though process is being governed by `terror' and lack of self confidence as shown by `commonsense # 457'

"lets not ignore the fact that Islam is way more Powerful, larger and resourceful than all Indic Dharmas combined."

This terror and inferiority complex developed in Indians out of 1000 years of continuous beatings is teh reason why people are advising offering `besak ka laddoo' even to dacoits.

isn'nt it?

Wise people evaluate history and analyse causes of their downfall and rise. They eliminate the causes of downfall and rise againt. that's how it moves.

If we feel Indic Dharmas have less social integration ( which is not required for spritual development by very much needed to establsih gangs and empires) and that integration is very much required in todays Desh kaal and paristhiti, let's do that for the sake of ourselves, for the sake of saving humnaity from brutality of gang type ideologies where you have the entry but no exit without death.

#464
Ruvy
April 24, 2008
01:54 PM

Temp,

This one contained hundreds of inch-long steel darts, known as flechettes (French for little arrows). They make disarmingly small entry wounds but do terrible damage once inside the human body. Khalil was hit by several, but the one that killed him punctured his heart.


and then these latter day nazis would cry foul and go into victimology.....

Screw the victimology. I you don't want to die a painful death, don't try to kill others, and don't dance and hand out candies when others die.

Or didn't they teach you that little bit of civilized behavior where you grew up?

Your Jew/nazi shit is very tiresome and repetitititititive....

Find a new line of bullshit.

#465
Gill
April 24, 2008
01:59 PM

Ayan Roy #460

>>>>> are blinded by strong biases and prejudices, have SELECTIVE eyesight, and quickly categorize people into "FOR" or "AGAINST";<<<<<

Now that's weird !!!! You yourself categorize yourself against "certain" institutions etc I did not categorizing you.

>>> In fact it is difficult to find any government/religion in this world which is totally free of all discrimination, suppression and violence of any kind.<<<

Isn't that's exactly the argument that "liberal idealism" makes???? (and maybe sprinkled with Marx's "Historical materialism")

But sir when one marry it with "self-interest" what do we get???

You had said
>>>> It blinds people to different viewpoints, and finally blinds one to the other's pain and misery.<<<<

Isn't your "liberal idealism" doing the same for you!!! I did not agree with your statement >"organized religion and socio-political ideology are the biggest evils for Mankind, surpassing even the greed for money"< and you called me "biased", "Prejudice", Selectively-sighted and also accused me of "personal attacks". Now where did I attack any one?

You see "nature's cruel way" as you mentioned -- it is in "marriage" with "self-interest" both at "micro" and "macro" levels!!!!! No one is "immune" to it not even "liberal idealists".....


Love, peace, power and prosperity to all

#466
Man Singh
URL
April 24, 2008
03:02 PM

Ayan #460

What you say makes sense. All communities have good people and bad people. All religious books may have some grains discrimination and opression and we have to be nice to the people and openminded.

Your feelings and nice and compatible to feleings of civili society.That's how it should be.

However these rules are not applicable to criminals, dacoits invaders and thuggs or their associates.

Do you feel we should be nice to terrorists who bombed trains in Bombay, who attacked parliament of India, Kargil , who burnt train in Godhra or who rioted in Gujraat subsequently?

Do you feel we should be nice to naxalites killing innocent people day and night or to dacoits attacking innocent villagers?

Do you feel we should be nice to crooked missioneries engaged in `faith trading for dollors' and subsequently causing social tensions within families within tribes, within countries and internationally?

Do you feel we should be nice to `jehadis' engaged in killing, abducting, torturing, and converting?

Do u feel u should be nice with a thief stealing your car or robbing ur house?

I will not my friend. I'll try to beat them back upto best of my capacity and call 100 police depending on circumestances.

India is bleeding only because we are too soft on demonic forces. Duryodhanas are raping Draupadis in presence of five Pandavas only because pandavas either have some vested interest or infected with terror or inferiority complex as many of our friends here even nowadays.

#467
Gill
April 24, 2008
03:57 PM

None of the Dhimmis and Great People from Anamika's list would ever raise a vioce and try to bring basic equality (atleast on books) in Suadi Arabia and other muslims nations.

Victimizations of Muslims is by their own insitution of Islam not by outsiders.

Why are all Dhimmis so scared and quite on these human rights abuses by insitution called Islam??? Why is hypocracy forcing these Dhimmis to close their eyes to this reality????

----

http:
//news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7358448.stm

--Saudi women 'kept in perpetual childhood so male relatives can exercise guardianship over them'

__The report says that Saudi women are denied the legal right to make even trivial decisions for their children - women cannot open bank accounts for children, enrol them in school, obtain school files or travel with their children without written permission from the child's father.

__"It's astonishing that the Saudi government denies adult women the right to make decisions for themselves but holds them criminally responsible for their actions at puberty," said Ms Deif.

__"For Saudi women, reaching adulthood brings no rights, only responsibilities."


__The New York-based group says Saudi women have to obtain permission from male relatives to work, travel, study, marry or even receive health care.

___The group says the Saudi establishment sacrifices basic human rights to maintain male control over women.

__Saudi Arabia is the only country in the world where women are not allowed to drive.

___Saudi clerics see the guardianship of women's honour as a key to the country's social and moral order.

#468
Gill
April 24, 2008
04:15 PM

Another one for Dhimmis- instead of calling Jews - Nazis... go and be proactive and make noise where it is really needed.

http://www.ibnlive.com/news/death-threats-to-jemima-for-supporting-muslim-body/63868-2.html

New Delhi: Former cricketer Imran Khan's ex-wife Jemima Khan is reportedly receiving death threats for supporting a Muslim think-tank that emphasises on religious tolerance.

Islamic fundamentalists have targetted Jemima for her involvement with the Quilliam foundation.

Extremists have posted pictures on the Internet of Jemima with ex-boyfriend Hugh Grant and kissing supermodel Kate Moss.

Members of the Quilliam Foundation, of which Khan is a patron, have reportedly been targeted by phone and email - and it is understood that one of the death threats referred to Khan by name.

Some blogs also cite her public appearances in miniskirts or low-cut dresses as "public examples of unabashed sin".





#469
Man Singh
URL
April 24, 2008
04:18 PM

Gill # 467

Your post proves again that islamophobia ia very much real. It is not only terrorising non muslims but muslims also.

jehadais are terrorising muslims and non muslims alike. As such they coverl almost whole humanity in their terror net.

And I think this is very topic in this thread and not Isreal VS palestine on which much of the webspace has been wasted ?

Real issue is if Islam used and is suing even today violence and terror for its expansion?

Did jehadis terrorised India for 1000 years or not?

Are Jehadis terrorising the world today or not?

Is this terror real or artificial?

From Indian experince of 1000 years, 1947 experinec of creation of pakistan and recent experince of Kashmir , bombay blast and many other terror attacks, for India it is very much real. For rest of the world, many `international citizens' are here to opine.

I can only use my common sense on certain limited issues like conflict between secular democratic Israel VS Muslims palestenians in line with conflicts between secular democratic India VS Kashmiri Muslims led by Jehadis.

#470
temporal
URL
April 24, 2008
05:15 PM

ruvy:

enjoy this take on the new nazis expelling the palestinians by edith garwood:

Sixty years ago, more than 700,000 Palestinians were forced from their homes, not knowing where they were going, not knowing when they would return. This displacement of over half of the indigenous inhabitants of Palestine created the largest and oldest refugee population today and is the root of the Israel-Palestinian conflict. This tragedy is called Al Nakba in Arabic.

We are often told the Palestinians fled of their own accord, but British and Israeli archives opened in the late 1970s tell a different story. The indigenous Arabs -- Muslim, Christian, secular -- were systematically driven out of areas desired for a new Jewish state.

Jews fleeing anti-Semitism in Europe started migrating to Palestine in the mid-19th century. The United Nations, attempting to quell conflicts between indigenous inhabitants and the new immigrants, proposed dividing the area.

Jewish immigrants accepted it, but the Arab side rejected it as unjust as it gave 55 percent of the land to the new immigrants while they were only one-third of the population and owned only 7 percent of the land at the time.

Arabs were expelled or fled

Archives show armed Jewish militias expelled Arabs using home demolitions, massacres, rape, beatings, bombings and widespread threats of terror. Some 300,000 were expelled before Israel declared itself an independent state in May 1948. Another 400,000 Palestinians were driven out or simply fled in the fighting that ensued.There are approximately 7 million Palestinians today, with 4 million still living as refugees in neighboring Arab countries as well as in the Israeli Occupied Palestinian Territories.

#471
Anamika
April 24, 2008
05:40 PM

Temp bhai, kya fayda aise logon se baat karne ka jinke man mein itni nafrat ho ki buddhi ka bhi istemaal na kar payen?

Regardless of the facts, Mullah Ruvy will argue that the land had been given to "his" people by "his" God and so what if people were raped, killed or driven from their homes! After all, it was "his" land, according to the real estate agency in the sky!

And his two Indian sidekicks will argue how regardless of the rapes, killings and stealing of land done by the Zionists, it was the Palestinians who were to blame because they were Muslims (and hence jihadis). Yeh to itne bahadur hain ki ansoo ka bhi mazhab poochte hain - just see the responses to the telegraph link!

And then they will say that even if the Palestinians were thrown out of their country, couldn't they just move to another Muslim land? After all, in their heads, there is no difference between a Saudi and Palestinian, or indeed a Libyan and an Indian, as long as they can pin a religion on them.

And then they want to know what Azim Premji (who is neither an entertainer nor an artist) says about Saudi Arabia, never mind the amount of money the man puts into philanthropy in India! After all, in their heads, how can a Muslim care about India or contribute anything to it?

These are the same people who thought Ashfaqullah Khan should go to Afghanistan to "his people" regardless of the fact that he died for India! All 21st century Jaichands - but wrapped in the tri-colour this time!




#472
Man Singh
URL
April 24, 2008
06:28 PM

Anamika # 471

Please do not distort the facts. Please do not demonise those who prefer to beat back the devil in place of surrendering to them.

Please do not equate Ashfaulla khan and Azim Premji to jehadis and it is you anamika who is equating them with terrorists.

Please do not insult these great Indian patriots.

I request yoy to learn to differentiate between Darashikoh and Aurangjeb and Ibrahim Gardi & Abdali.

Please don'nt use Khan Abdul gaffar khan's chadar to protect Jinnah?

Yes it seems there is not meaning in discussing anything with those who have adopted `beating by invaders' as their fate and who energy goes in defending the invaders. This is utmost `slavish mentality' which Gill says `Dhimmitude' who start beliving that beating is birthright of invaders and getting beaten is God's command on vilagers.

I object ma'am. No more. My forefathers might have tolerated this nonsense. My mothers and grandmothers might have agreed to bear the pain.
Coward Jodhabai might have accepted tyrant Akbar as her husband while other Rajput warriors were sacrificing their lives for the motherland and brave women might be committing Jauhar for the same cause.

I will not with due respect ma'am.
I will beat back the invaders.

Yes I said those who are not happy with India , I am repeating again `those who are not happy in India' they should feel free to go back to their ligitimate share of land which was 4% more then their population in place of blasting this land.

Why not? Please give the argument.

If Jews started coming back to their home captured by invaders, what's wrong in it?
If dacoits and their decendents do `chori aur seenajori' what'villagers should do? Please propose the solution.

If Ram janambhumi plundered by Mir Baki, if Krishna janambhumi plundered by Aurangjeb, if Kashi Vishanath was destroyed by Aurangjeb and if Somnath was looted and plundered by gajanavi along with millions of deaths, what's wrong if I want to worship in my place of pilgrimage captured by invaders in free India.

For 1000 years of slavery and opression , I was not allowd to speak. Today I have a voive why you want to shut me up.

Please ma'm do justice to me also. I was looted, beated, booted , enslaved and forced to keep quite. I was even forced to pay additional tax only to stay in my own country. Today I feel we got freedom. Do I have a right to see My home town today? Or you will not allow me that legitimate demand of mine only because a decendent of dacoits and invaders is sitting on that house of mine.

yes ma'am aansu ka majhab nahi poocho. But this formula should be applicable to Kashmiri pandits also?

This formula should be applicable on millions of Hindus/Sikhs kicked out Pakistan and Bangla Desh.

Jara Daya karo ma'am. Ek baar apne Bhai bahno ke situation pe bhi taras khao.

Please make your position clear if `Hindus are part of your definition of Humanity?'

#473
temporal
URL
April 24, 2008
07:15 PM

ms:

mujhay tou rona aagaya aapka haal paRh ker

ab aisa kijiaye

mil ker hum aik final solution souchtay hain

aur aik buhat baRa gas chamber banatay haiN jahan in sub ko hum dhakail daingay

environmental pollution ho to ho

humain kahan kisi ki parvah

#474
Gill
April 24, 2008
08:24 PM


>>>>And his two Indian sidekicks will argue<<<<

Oh excuse me!!!!

What we have here a fanatical gang of 3... The ATC (temp, Anamika and CS) Gang!!!! Only their distortions are "truth" and "virtue"!!!

Sorry you may hate Jews and Israel......... but majority of Hindus and Indians do not....in reality they do not give a damn about Israel-palestine conflict because they have their own unsolved conflicts....


--------



temp

Can you please stop distortion of facts and reality. If you really talking for Palestinian "cause" than you must also define Palestine properly

"Palestine" includes Israel and parts of Jordan, Lebanon and Syria.


There was no Palestinian nation. It was on sept 21st 1921 that demand for Palestinian nation was put forward in Syria. Please educate yourself about Convention on League of nations of 1919 and the San Ramos Conference of 1920.And the same time the 1920 British Mandate of Palestine and Mesopotamia!!!!!

And sorry to say "stop bull shitting" on a nation called "Palestine".... Just like Israel it is also a biblical concept......

If you are really for Palestinian cause than just like Israel culprit is Jordan, Lebanon and Syria also.... all of them are holding Palestinian lands illegally and subjugting and using the palestinians...........

Nakba Day is the day in 1948 when all sorrounding Arab nations lost to Jews......... but the struggle for Palestine had started on 21sr sept 1921.....

--------

I didn't want to get into this but man there is limit to "hatred" and "bigotory" and "fanatism".......... you are calling jews nazis!!!! but atleast get your history and facts.

By now we all know where your "ATC Gang" stand on this issue but there are other views and versions also on the same reality!!!!!

#475
Anamika
April 25, 2008
03:14 AM

"Sorry you may hate Jews and Israel......... but majority of Hindus and Indians do not....in reality they do not give a damn about Israel-palestine conflict because they have their own unsolved conflicts...."

FIRST OF ALL - I DONT HATE THE JEWS!!!!! I realise that your grasp of reading is not up to par but do you EVER READ ANYTHING beyond Zionist propaganda? JEWS are NOT THE SAME as ISRAEL!

LOTS of Jews don't support Israel or the Zionist movement - yes the same ones that Mullah Ruvy calls "traitors" because they don't believe that anything based on injustice or cruelty towards others (ie Palestinians) can be reconciled with their own conscience AS JEWS! I suggest you scroll up and ACTUALLY read at some of the people (JEWS!) mentioned in this thread and decried as traitors by Mullah Ruvy.

DO tell me HOW history is being distorted when it is recorded in detail by people who themselves had a stake in the establishment of Israel? How EVERY journalist and international body reported similar tragedies? Or are YOU a Holocaust-denier as well?

And how is history being distorted when a lot of JEWS themselves were horrified at the expulsion, rape and killing of the Palestinians at Nakba? Even a man like Shimon Tzabar - who btw had fought for the formation of Israel as a young man, and been wanted as a terrorist by the British authorities in the 1940s (remind you of Ashfaqullah Khan or Bhagat Singh?) and whom our fanatic Ruvy considers a "traitor" - began to realise just how unjust the state of Israel was!

But of course Mullah Ruvy's Indian side-kick knows more about Israel than that country's own freedom fighters!!

Aur aap jo baat kar rahen hain ki there was no Palestinian nation, to janab us mayne se to there is also no Indian nation. Agli baar jab China ka hamla hoga Himalaya ki pahadiyon par, to woh bhi yahi kahenge. Aur phir aap unki haan se haan milayege.

To deny a "people" is the logic of the invader and coloniser to insist that there were no "native" people. It happened in the Americas where the bulk of the population died within decades of initial contact and thus could be said to "not really exist" and the land was truly "virgin" and empty. Australia was declared "terra nullius" and thus the people who lived there declared non-existent (so much easier to kill, rape and expel). And Israel has done the same thing.

Finally, do show me this "majority" of Indians who support Israel? Is that the same majority of Indians who "supported" Israel during the 2006 war against Lebanon where the Israeli ambassador was pulled up by the MEA? Incidentally, for calling the Lebanese " cockroaches", a term that the NAZIS used for their victims 60 years ago? And the average Indian was horrified? Is that the same "majority" of Indians that were horrified by the invasion of Iraq?

I suggest you go back and take a look at the ways the "majority" expressed its opinions - in polls, in voting, in debate. They are widely available in the media, NGO and UN reports and a host of corporate and academic surveys. You might get a shaking out of that delusionary world you inhabit!

#476
Ruvy
April 25, 2008
03:21 AM

Man Singh,

Don't waste your time being civil to Anamika - or Temporal. They've been pushing lies for 420 comments on this thread and innumerable others on other comment threads....

They've been calling me "nazi" for months and have now reduced you and Gill to mere "sidekicks of the 'nazi'". I realize that you are a gentleman, but sometimes civility just does not pay.

Both Anamika and her kamerad friend Temporal push the same lies, but every now and again (you got to really look for it), Anamika sheds her "scholar's" skin to reveal the hater underneath.

Read this to get as look at what monster really lies under the shrill "'scholar' of London".

We should do EXACTLY what Hitler did, and Israel is doing...jai Hind!


Sympathy for the devil? Or perhaps we are seeing "what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?"

The foolish woman buys her own lies and would have you good Indians bathe in the same bloodbath she condemns Jews for trying to avoid.

#477
Ruvy
April 25, 2008
04:07 AM

Temporal,

You hauled out yet another shikseh to lie for you, I see.

Edith Garwood, like so many so entranced by the "Arab lamb of sacrifice" that they cannot smell the camel shit out behind the tent, manages to skip over a key point in history.

She writes, "the Arab side rejected it as unjust as it gave 55 percent of the land to the new immigrants while they were only one-third of the population and owned only 7 percent of the land at the time."

She manages, as do most of her ilk (not to mention you also), to ignore the huge hunk of the Palestine Mandate east of the Jordan ripped off by the British in 1920 to provide a patrimony for the man they cheated out of an independent Arab kingdom. This of course, gives credence to the house of fools in the who voted to partition my country.

She also manages to miss the basic point that the Arabs went to war against my people in 1947, and the British backed them. And she manages to ignore the fact that Jaffa, Haifa, Tz'fat and Ramle were not cakewalks but pitched battles.

LOSERS IN WAR TEND TO LOSE THEIR HOMES, IF NOT THEIR LIVES.

Or didn't they teach this to you in your history classes, oh mighty Canadian poet with a cold spot in his heart for Canadian Jews who get shot at by Arabs?

Then there is the shit about "seven million Palestinians".

The Arabs learned something very well from us, oh mighty Canadian poet of Indo-Aryan languages. They learned how never to record a death in the accounting books so as to squeeze every last pice of change from the United Nations. A Chicago ward boss could learn lessons from us Jews, Temporal, and obviously the Arabs did learn.

Out of one side of the face they cry over the martyred Arabs and Jewish nazis - out of the other side, they holler "ITBAH AL YAHUD!!!" and look for every excuse to kill a Jew or celebrate his death.

BUT NEVER DO THEY RECORD AN ARAB DEATH IN THE RECORD BOOKS. SO, THEY SWELL THEIR NUMBERS LIKE FISH PUFFING HIMSELF UP TO IMPRESS HIS POTENTIAL KILLER.

I won't dirty my hands or my intellect with the rest of her garbage.

#478
Anamika
April 25, 2008
05:05 AM

Ruvy - Guess your real estate god doesn't hand out a brain sharp enough to pick up sarcasm? Been a bit tight-fisted with the chosen people, hasn't he?

Besides, you shouldn't be talking of civility when you use the "shikseh" - EVERY single non-Jewish woman who has been labelled that finds that term offensive, derogatory and prejudiced. Sort of a "cutesy" "ethnic" term quite akin to kike, nigger etc. Or is it that GOD gave you the right to insult everyone else and pat yourself on the back for apparent civility?

Note to editors: I assume that alongside "dhimmi" and "shikseh" there is now an approved list of ethnically driven hate-terms that are acceptable on DC?

#479
Ayan Roy
April 25, 2008
06:19 AM

@Gill - I am not a liberal idealist or capitalist or Marxist..I am just a simple human being, who hates hate and violence.
I am not accusing you of anything, these were my conclusions about the way you write.
Anyways, stay happy with your viewpoints.

@Man Singh -
>> However these rules are not applicable to criminals, dacoits invaders and thuggs or their associates.
**True, but don't you think violence should be the LAST resort?

>>Do you feel we should be nice to terrorists who bombed trains in Bombay, who attacked parliament of India, Kargil , who burnt train in Godhra or who rioted in Gujraat subsequently?
** Not at all. Once such henious crimes have been proved, the perpetrators should be executed immediately.
Unfortunately many Indians don't distinguish between the errant individuals and a community, that's the tragedy.

>>Do you feel we should be nice to naxalites killing innocent people day and night or to dacoits attacking innocent villagers?
**No way. Try to be nice to them initially; if they still don't behave, eliminate them, quickly and mercifully.
But at the same time, why not eliminate the root causes that Naxalites have sprung up, i.e. lack of development and poverty?
Unfortunately, our government neither has the power and efficiency to destroy properly nor to construct properly.


>>Do you feel we should be nice to crooked missioneries engaged in `faith trading for dollors' and subsequently causing social tensions within families within tribes, within countries and internationally?
** We should make a clear distinction between missionaries who try to buy poor into Christianity and those who mind their business without affecting anybody.


>> Do you feel we should be nice to `jehadis' engaged in killing, abducting, torturing, and converting?
** No. Sometimes, to protect other innocents, you may need to be violent yourself. But ensure that your actions do not lead to a unending cycle of hate.

>> Do u feel u should be nice with a thief stealing your car or robbing ur house?
**As much of a peace lover I am, I don't think I would, as my animal instinct of possessiveness, fear and anger may be awakened at that point of time. I would much rather calmly tell the robbers "Take everything, thy necessity is greater than mine" but I am no saint myself.

>>I will not my friend. I'll try to beat them back upto best of my capacity and call 100 police depending on circumestances.
**That's understandable. But only as a DEFENSIVE REACTION, NOT AS AN OFFENSIVE ACTION.
One question, do you think your efforts will put a PERMANENT END to the attacks???

>>India is bleeding only because we are too soft on demonic forces. Duryodhanas are raping Draupadis in presence of five Pandavas only because pandavas either have some vested interest or infected with terror or inferiority complex as many of our friends here even nowadays.
** India is also bleeding because many so-called Pandavas have turned worse than Duryodhan himself!

Anyways, I have nothing personal against anybody. I see that "tit-for-tat" seems to be the generic response to violence on Earth; maybe "offering the other cheek" does not work at all!
But then, we get an unending chain - (tit-tat-tit-tat-tit-tat-tit-tat-......infinity) That is what's happening in Israel. Nobody wants to lay down arms.

I think nowadays peace can only be in the form of an uneasy, unsteady 'cold' peace, that is two equally powerful sides matched up, knowing that violent engagement means mututal destruction.

True inclusive loving peace and universal brotherhood may never be seen on earth, even if there are just two human beings left alive..

Sadly, this probably is the law of nature. :-(

much Love and peace to all, in this world full of hate;
Ayan

#480
Ruvy
April 25, 2008
09:07 AM

"shikseh" - EVERY single non-Jewish woman who has been labelled that finds that term offensive, derogatory and prejudiced.

Hurts when the shoe is on the other foot, doesn't it Anamika?

Let's take a stroll through this comment thread to see why its use might be appropriate - but do note, it was not against you, Anamika. That would violate the rules of this on-line magazine.

1. you are too busy killing Palestinian children and stealing Palestinian land.... Just like the blood libel of the goyim in Europe.

2. The Israelis and missionaries base their approach on the same comic book .... Should I spit on the Bhagwad Gita, Anamika?

3. Mullah Ruvy....; and what title would you like, young lady?

4. latter day nazis; the wannabee kahanee; murderer's disciple (the confessed follower of murderer kahane bin osama bin bush)

My my, young lady. This is just a little sample of the "civility" displayed by you and others on this comment thread alone. If I handed it back in turn, I'd be banned. But this kike from Brooklyn knows how to write in his native tongue, not to mention how to curse you from here to hell in Yiddish or Hebrew, and he knows how to follow rules of parliamentary procedure - something that "academics" like you, "poets" from Canada, and "physics professors" would do well to learn. The lot of you have yet to make an intelligent argument backing up your assertions.

For all of your whining and mewling falsehoods and lies, and now (poor thing) complaining about a name I never called you, you have never given any evidence of the genocide of the Arabs you so insistently whine about. There are no ashes from burnt flesh falling like snow from the sky from death ovens; no Jewish kids standing along highways making cut throat symbols to Arabs being transported to death camps in trucks; no locations of death camps where Arabs are systematically killed in their thousands, no proof of Arab "bravery" - unless hiding amongst children to fire Qassam rockets or Grad missiles is to be defined as "bravery".

That is because there is no genocide. Just a lot of Wahhabi-influenced murder-crazed Arabs dying to kill Jews, and a whole pack of useful idiots like you to repeat their lies like repeater stations for a radio network.

There is plenty of evidence of a Jew-hating mentality systematically and constantly spread by the "Palestinian" media, links to which have appeared in comments upthread, along with their direct ties to the Nazi murderers and satanists who devoured Europe in their spiritual darkness 70 years ago. You can ignore the truth if you wish, young lady, but until an electro-magnetic pulse destroys the internet and electronic media that access the internet, they remain.

#481
Gill
April 25, 2008
10:14 AM

Anamika wrote
>>>Aur aap jo baat kar rahen hain ki there was no Palestinian nation, to janab us mayne se to there is also no Indian nation<<<<

Typical!!! Leftist statement once again!!!!
This is a similar "threat" that leftists gave on Tibet Issue to safeguard Chinese "genocide" and "atrocities" only.... to prove their ideological loyalties.

Isn't it amusing how a leftist would very conveniently threaten the very existence and identity of the ones who oppose them. You are going crazy over Palestinian nation and in the process even "negating" the Indian nation. WOW!!!!!

But typical to "leftist triads" of distortion you fail to mention that so called Palestinian nation belongs as much to Jews too. Bottom line is that both Israel and Palestinian nation are two sides of the same coin. Only biblical prophocies or reality that has changed is religion .... Islam has converted the majority inhabitants to muslims. And like everywhere else it has now become a simple issue of Islamic or Arab Imperialism.

But of course a Dhimmi has to propagate and help implement Islamic or Arab Imperialism even at the cost negating and destroying ones own identity and existence.

Fine now let me be "scared" and "agree" with you and "ATC Gang" or else my concept of nationhood and legitimacy of even India will be destroyed by you!!!!!


Anamika wrote

>>>>>To deny a "people" is the logic of the invader and coloniser to insist that there were no "native" people. It happened in the Americas where the bulk of the population died<<<<<

Finally !!!! This is what is called "Arab Imperialism" and India and Hindus have been "victim" .....
Hypocracy!!!
This logic is "valid" when you are calling Jews Nazis and asking for destruction of Israel but in Indian and Hindu case it is not "valid" !!!!!! oops sorry forgot "Indian nation" itself is a fabricated delusion....

Anamika wrote

>>>>Finally, do show me this "majority" of Indians who support Israel? And the average Indian was horrified? Is that the same "majority" of Indians that were horrified by the invasion of Iraq?<<<<

WOW!!! Another one!!!! Sorry only leftists pretended to be "horrified" because of "ideological" loyalties...............

..hahaha... sorry to let you know average Indian do not give a damn about middle east!!!!!!

Average Indian lives under the threat of Jihadi gun everyday. He is "horrified" at the ethnic cleansing of Hindus in Kashmir.... Bomb blasts.... Death and destruction ... all in the name of Islam their God and Prophet..... Average Indian is "horrified" to see every year thousands of Islamic fighters waiting to cross over to India from Pakistan in the name of Islam to kill Hindus..... Average Indian is "horrified" to see that how certain Islamic Institutions are using Madrasas and jamait etc to create little Talibans and Afghanistan inside India...

Average Indian is "horrified" at the commie "revolutions" killing thousands all across India...... Average Indian is "horrified" at the hypocrisy on "throwing" Taslima out of India.... Average Indian is "horrified" at the hypocrisy of "subduing" and "sidelining" the suffering and genocide of Tibetians by Chinese!!!!!!!!!

Anamika wrote

>>>>You might get a shaking out of that delusionary world you inhabit!<<<<<

HAHAHAHA!!!! That's a good one.....you are forcefully trying to impose your ideological delusions on everybody..... and want it to be accepted as "universal truth". And if one do not "agree" with your distortions and delusions than you "threat" them of destroying their existence and identity.....

Anamika wrote

>>>>Note to editors: I assume that alongside "dhimmi" and "shikseh" there is now an approved list of ethnically driven hate-terms that are acceptable on DC?<<<<

Dhimmi is not a "hate-term" and has nothing to do with "ethnicity" either... It is a legal official term used in Sharia law. And you should know that Sharia Law is applicable even in India....

Muslims do not hate Dhimmi they only have "contempt" for them but in order to be liked and accepted a Dhimmi has to act in a certain way.... And that's described by Dhimmitude......
And you have done a very good job at it!!!!





#482
Anamika
April 25, 2008
10:23 AM

Ruvy - LETS GET THIS STRAIGHT: I KNOW you didnt call me shikseh. However, JUST AS NIGGER is UNACCEPTABLE, so is shikseh.

YOU are the one advocating the genocide of Palestinians and threatening others with hell and brimstone from your blood thirsty god. All it takes is a scroll back to see the fanatic hatred you have expressed on this thread.

My point is not whether you are a fanatic. I am simply pointing out your own hypocrisy in talking of "gentlemen" and "civility" when you can barely keep a civil tongue in your head when speaking of non-Jews.

I wonder whether the Indian side-kicks who have been supporting you - not because they know a whole lot about Israel but because of the basic logic of "my enemy's enemy is my friend" - can recognise your fanaticism, and how it would extend to the "Hindus" or indeed anyone else in another circumstances.

Btw, Gill/Man Singh - how do you like your Israel/Zionist friend now that he qualifies non-Jewish women (ie including YOUR wife/sister/mother) as "shikseh - which fyi in yiddish means floozie/whore and is drawn from the Hebrew "sheketz" which means "unclean", "dirty", abomination, loathsome, lizard/rodent/crawler etc, depending on the translation.

Doesn't seem that Mullah Ruvy is that far from the "jihadis" who call non-Muslims "pigs and monkeys"; or the Nazis who called "non-Aryans" beasts and animals; or the ISRAELI Ambassador to India who in 2006 called the Lebanese "cockroaches." OR the ISRAELI Ambassador to Australia the same year who begged Australians to support the ONLY OTHER WHITE EUROPEAN NATION IN ASIA.

Keep going Mullah Ruvy....this "shikseh" will keep applauding for each show of fanaticism you put on this site...





#483
Gill
April 25, 2008
11:20 AM

Anamika wrote

>>>I wonder whether the Indian side-kicks who have been supporting you - not because they know a whole lot about Israel but because of the basic logic of "my enemy's enemy is my friend"<<<

Once again where did you come up with this theory of "enemies enemy is my friend"?????

Stop this nonsense of twisting and distortions!!!! Since when are Muslims in Middle East "enemies" of Hindus in India?????? Once again Typical Leftist "tactic".And somehow living in a delusion that their "view" are "virtue" and everything else is "evil"!!!

I have always said Indians do not give a "damn" on middle east.. it has nothing to do with them... It is only you and and your "ATC" Gang that keep insisting on "fighting" for the cause and in the process "distort" Indian facts and history only to support your "obsession" with their "cause"..

Indian enemy is with in South Asia only. One can even say that by proxy the "biggest" enemies are the leftists too... Ummm no wonder leftists in India are so "against" Indo-US ties too!!!!!

>>>>>can recognise your fanaticism, and how it would extend to the "Hindus" or indeed anyone else in another circumstances.<<<<<<

What is this now from Islamophobia we have Zionophobia!!!!

I never knew Zionists are claiming Hindu lands as parts of Israel. But I do know that at present Islam has already taken a huge chunk and is threatening to take rest....

So please let us live in our "reality" and yo cater to your "ideological" loyalties!!!!

And thanks and no thanks we are capable of calling a "spade a spade"

>>>Gill/Man Singh - how do you like your Israel/Zionist friend now that he qualifies non-Jewish women (ie including YOUR wife/sister/mother) as "shikseh -<<<<

Nice instigation!!!! Did he??? good for him!!!! Anyway they are called "Mellichas" by our people.. so whats the big deal.... Why should you care?

You have already legitimated the rape of Hindu women by Islam.... In the past and present... it goes on even today in the name of Islam in Bangladesh, Pakistan and sadly India too... But your ideology wants us to ignore and accept it!!!

And more over how is Islam treating its own women??? Ofcourse here too we should shut up and respect their convictions

Even in your own India the Islamic "subjugation" and "inequality" of women is legitimized as "law" So officially Indian law under the pretext of Islamic Shariat also looks upon Indian women citizens similar to "shikseh" status.

Why don't you first bring equality and respect in your country? Or it is taboo becaue Islam sanctions this inequality and subjugation and as a good Dhimmi you have to respect and accept it and legalize it?

#484
temporal
URL
April 25, 2008
12:53 PM

ana:

the two three of them are gold fish in a bowl. they think the entire world lives in water. their experience and imagination cannot exceed those confines

***

ps: as for civility from the plebeian paisano...itna takalluf karne ki zaroorat nahiN...his ilk will continue to maim, kill, displace and occupy palestinian children, men and women and will continue to bristle at references that equate such behaviour with past hitlers and nazis

but the truth cannot be enscapulated and hidden and the truth glares that this generation of occupying israelis is the true successors and inheritors to their previous nazi victimiser

and the palestinians are the new davids

#485
Gill
April 25, 2008
12:59 PM

>>>>the two three of them are gold fish in a bowl. they think the entire world lives in water. their experience and imagination cannot exceed those confines<<<<

And that is the "ATC Gang" !!!!

#486
temporal
URL
April 25, 2008
01:00 PM

pps:

they continue to ignore the bottom line (from an earlier post)

the fringe israeli voice here insists on justifying his occupation and displacement>
he conveniently choses to repeatedly overlook that i and others are not after displacing him and his misguided ilk

we want him and all israelis to live there in peace....with dignity, justice and guaranteed fundamental human rights as enshrined in the UN resolution...AND we want the same rights and privileges for the palestinians in occupied palestine and in the diaspora

he and his ilk would not allow that for the fellow palestinians...instead what he and his government is resorting to for the past 60 years is what hitler did to the jews...that is why any comparison of israelis with nazis irks them

#487
commonsense
April 25, 2008
01:01 PM

Ruvy:

""Find a new line of bullshit.""

Yah, right! As in, never claim that you've had the LAST WORD! Or is that horse-shit?

#488
temporal
URL
April 25, 2008
01:06 PM

As we approach the 60th anniversary of the state of Israel, the 60th anniversary of the Nakba, let us remember Adnan. Let us remember the inhabitants of Umm Khalid. Let us remember more than six million people whose basic human rights have been deprived for 60 years, and let us, as Jewish people with a history of oppression and a tradition of social justice, work for the right of indigenous people to return to their land. This is our only hope for true peace and security in the region.
Hannah Mermelstein is a co-founder of Birthright Unplugged and lives in Boston, Philadelphia and Ramallah. This essay was originally published by The Jewish Advocate

#489
commonsense
April 25, 2008
01:16 PM

Ruvy:

""AND I DON'T GIVE A DAMN WHAT YOU ALL THINK.""

Liar, because he does! And he claimed he was never going to respond to this thread! When did we hear that before? Liar, twice over. (Editors: not this is not slander, it is the truth, holding this guy to his own word, not the for the first time...although God did not speak to me...)

#490
Morris
April 25, 2008
02:28 PM

Don't you folks get tired going over the same stuff over and over again. Simplify it for crying out loud and do not keep repeating it. If they have not heard it first time they are not likely hear it any way no matter how many times one repeats. You can wake up only those who are asleep. Those who are pretending to be asleep for them it is a game. Keep on playing.

#491
Morris
April 25, 2008
02:31 PM

Don't you folks get tired going over the same stuff over and over again. Simplify it for crying out loud and do not keep repeating it. If they have not heard it first time they are not likely hear it any way no matter how many times one repeats. You can wake up only those who are asleep. Those who are pretending to be asleep for them it is a game. Keep on playing.

Morris

#492
Man Singh
URL
April 25, 2008
03:07 PM

Bhai Temp # 473

Hum Indian ke bhagya me rona hi likha hai bhai. Isliye khoob foot foot kar ro.

Jo log apne ghar, samaj, rashtra , world ko badmashon se bachane me sharm mahsoos karte hai unhe rone ke alava kuchch nahi milega.

jahan tak final solution ki baat hai, devasur sangram eternal hai. jab tak creation hai, villagers and dacoits hamesha rahenge.

Its only vigilance that can `minimise' our losses. Dev shaktiya strong rahe to demonic forces apne aap hi shaant rahti hai.

Haan there are people like Balram who loose their sense of dicrrimination beteen Dharma and Adharma and go ob pilgrimage when decisice moments of history occur.

Krishna takes a resolution and fulfils it fearlessly. He takes side. Defines very clearly that Insulting a women in parlimanet is a crime and adharma bigger then capturing of kingdom and those who were involved need to be punished along with their associates.

Any society who is not ready to punish miscreants for sure will die soon my freind.

Choice hamari. Kya hum 1947 ka repeat chahte hai?
Kya hum Kashmir ka repeat chahte hai?

Yadi aapka answer haan hai then enjoy and I have no further issues. If do not want few million deaths again then you have to eliminate the seeds of these unfortunate events.

Seeds are a separatist mentality indocrinated by Jehadis in mind of Muslims. It doesn mean all muslims are under influence of Jehadis and hence don'nt jump to teh conclusion tp brand me as `anti muslim'.

All Muslims are not Jehadis and all christians are not missioneries. I am against Jehadis and missioneries and not against Muslims or christians.

I am against Dacoits and not against their whole village they belong to?

Isliye if you are not able to see 80 crore budget of SIMI only for UP to create meyhem in teh country, you will be having no choice but to do Rona Dhona and few condelence letters.

Hope you'll celebrate that day.

#493
Man Singh
URL
April 25, 2008
03:17 PM

Ayan # 479

Thanks for your time spent in responding point wise my post. I like the discussion to move ahead like this.

I agree with you on most of the point and would like to further append few lines to your views about naxalites, dacoits and jehadis.

Yes Ayan I agree that root cause of naxalism should be elimintaed and development is the only way to make sure such regressive ideologies not prevail. This is a long term stertegy.

However to minimise the damage during this transition perod from now till development takes place, we have to be pro active and make sure that our houses are not robbed by dacoits, jehadis naxalites and missioneris.

Should we wait for Jehaids to blast the trains, kill the 500 people and then only we'll take action?

Should we not take pre-emptive measures using our intelligence services to decide from where jehadis are being produced and nip in the bud that particular ideology and infra structure to prevent blast in train and save life of innocent people?

#494
Man Singh
URL
April 25, 2008
03:34 PM

Anamika # 482

My fundamentals are very clear Ana.
I make up my mind based on actions of people. I told you many times I am not against individuals cast creed or religion including muslims or christians. I am against the criminla actions of jehaids and missioneris and dacoits.

jews lived in India for around 1700 years and never interfered in our affairs no mater waht their books tell about us. As such their actions prove that they are tolerable lot.

Yes if they start treating us what you have written "non-Jewish women (ie including YOUR wife/sister/mother) as "shikseh - which fyi in yiddish means floozie/whore and is drawn from the Hebrew "sheketz" which means "unclean", "dirty", abomination, loathsome, lizard/rodent/crawler etc, depending on the translation."

You know pretty well what I'll do. I'll beat back the devil exactly the way I beaten back the dacoits from my village 15 years back.

jehadis on the other hand are continuously bleeding India for last 1300 years and that's why their actions need be hated. Missioneries every act is focussed on how `eliminate' religions of the land and hence interefernce in native's affairs from day one they enter in any country.

I'll do justice to Zionists also if they misbehave with me, my society, my people and with humanity as a whole?

Therefore its is actions of the people that should be loved or hated and not the individuals.

jehaids, missionreis, naxalites or dacoits attack innocent people and deserve punishment.

If Ruvy tries to do same , he knows pretty well what I'll do with him and any of his associates?

However I am still waiting an answer to a very crucial question I raised?

What a security should do if terrorists are firing missiles while hiding behind Burqa Clad women and stone carrying civilians including children and killing innocent people by those missiles? These Burqa clad women and civilians are intetionally acting as human shields to terrorists.

I expected you , temporal and cs to give a serious thought to this very practical and real issue and not just emotions and branding me with some titles. I am a village boy and wants to remain so. I am happy without medals.

#495
Man Singh
URL
April 25, 2008
03:43 PM

Bhai Morris # 491

This issue is very crucial fro India. India has seen 3 million deaths in 1947 and 3.5 Million kashmiri Hindus has been looted beaten and kicked out or converted in Kashmir and os solution is visible near sight.

Issue is how to assimilate those who from day 1 of entry on this land or conversion to Islam always insulted the civilisational values originated from India.

Its is like assimiliating dacoits and victim villagers.

Villagers are demanding dacoits to abandon their bad habbit of violenve and dacoity as a precondition to accept them in civil society.

But there are some associates of thieves who want to give legitimacy to dacoits and want to settle them among villagers without any precondition of `abandoning dacoity , bullying or violence'

Villagers are scared and terrorised by present and past acts of dacoits and hence seek an aplogy for past crimes and promise for future not to perpetrate the same crimes against villagers as dacoits did in past.

But associates of dacoits are trying to `demonise' victim villagers themselves and calling them narrowminded for not accapeting dacoits unconditionally. rather some are trying to deny any dacoity in village only to legitimise the dacoiuts claim though even with nakes eye people can see dacoits openly enjoying belongings of villagers.

This is a very serious issue my freind and storey gets repeated repeated and repeated again. It is good I feel. Let villagers analyse deeply and repetitively befor etaking a final decison.

#496
Morris
April 25, 2008
05:55 PM

I have been follwing or at least trying to follow your discussion. In a way I agree with you. But that is a main issue with Islam. There is not much any one could do. Reform must evolve from within. I am not very optimistic. Just look around the world. They are a difficult. And once they are majority, they want Islamic republic. Then minorities are gradualy eliminated or they are reduced to insigificant level. So what is new. Kashmir should have been divided like Punjab and Bengal to protect minority. It is a disgrace for India that they cannot protect their own citizens.
This is my opinion. I think it is based on facts around the world. I do not wish to argue. You are entiteled to your own. If you disagree, please do express it in a concise undertandable way.

#497
temporal
URL
April 25, 2008
07:28 PM

ms:

we know each other through words only... your words betray you;)

so, what is your FINAL SOLUTION?

One of Efrati's worst experiences started when some Palestinian kids threw rocks and Molotov cocktails at his unit when he was out on patrol in south Hebron. About 40 minutes afterward, he says, other soldiers in his unit identified and shot dead one of the youths who threw a flaming bottle. He was 11 years old. Israeli ex-soldiers expose abuse of Palestinians


#498
temporal
URL
April 25, 2008
07:28 PM

ms:

we know each other through words only... your words betray you;)

so, what is your FINAL SOLUTION?

One of Efrati's worst experiences started when some Palestinian kids threw rocks and Molotov cocktails at his unit when he was out on patrol in south Hebron. About 40 minutes afterward, he says, other soldiers in his unit identified and shot dead one of the youths who threw a flaming bottle. He was 11 years old. Israeli ex-soldiers expose abuse of Palestinians


#499
Morris
April 25, 2008
09:05 PM

Man Singh
In the Middle East, in my opinion, Israel is making it very difficult to resolve this issue. In fact being a stronger party they should try to be fair and just. In stead they are openly unfair. Even now as we speak negotations are going on and illegal settlements go on being built. What kind of integrity is that?

#500
Ruvy
April 26, 2008
02:11 PM

[BLATHERING EDITED - SUGGEST READ COMMENT POLICY AGAIN]

#501
Ruvy
April 26, 2008
02:44 PM

[STOP BLATHERING]

#502
Aaman
URL
April 26, 2008
02:59 PM

There seems to be some amount of extreme rhetoric on many sides being exercised here. Perhaps a cooling off is in order.

Performance check - how does this page load for most people? Do you prefer all comments to appear in sequence or would you like them paginated?

#503
Ruvy
April 26, 2008
03:10 PM

Attempting to end bold print here.

#504
Anamika
April 26, 2008
03:59 PM

Aaman, page is a bit slow to load although not hugely.

Agreed. Meanwhile god calls at the pub. Figured out his name is Macallans. Have a good weekend.

#505
commonsense
April 27, 2008
12:39 AM

Morris,

Your point about repitions ad nauseum well taken. However our friend Ruvy is quite the guy and I do enjoy getting him all frothing and foaming. And even I am getting sick of Man Singh's dacoit/villagers stories...

#506
Ruvy
April 27, 2008
01:11 AM

Perhaps a cooling off is in order.

Aaman,

Lies and propaganda all have the same taste of falseness, whether served up hot or cold.

Performance check - how does this page load for most people?

For reasons I don't understand, this site is as slow as molasses, and is hard to connect to.

#507
Teg Bir Singh
April 27, 2008
07:35 AM

GODDAMN! 506 comments! u people don't have a life.
especially the two RSS-brainwashed "singhs".

PS:They are the real tragedy. Hating Muslims, because they grew up around majority Hindu areas. thats just sad man. ms. anamika sounds more of a SIkh, despite a being trendy leftist, than these two characters. MR. Man, you need to feel more 'Maan' for your history than being seduced by the Hindutva line of reactionary hatred against Muslims. The sufis of punjab cannot be separated from the land of Punjab no matter how much u try... then again u r not from Punjab. heres one for you non-Punjabi-"Sikh"-hindutva-shatru: During the approx. 80 years of SIkh rule, during Maharaja RAnjit's kingdom faced 5 jehadi assaults coming from as far as iraq, plus the usual afghans/iranis etc. Guess how many times the Punjabi muslims faltered/took the jehadis' side?! and the answer is.......drum roll.....: NONE.
Now if you r going to go around bashing communities, its the brahmins of Punjab that r more vulnerable, historically atleast, starting from...lets see... Guru Nanak Sahib!..they hated his "rebellion", perceived it as a threat worse that Mullahs... coming through Guru Arjan's (the King of Shaheed's) Shaheedi, which was brough on by the insistence of WAzir CHANDO, the minister who convinced the Mogal emperor that SIkhs are a political threat, threat to Islam, and was later punished by the 6th Guru (read up on that)... continuing through all the wars waged by HINDO CHIEFTAINS against the GURU SAHIBAN, number OVER 80 percent of all the wars TOTAL .... to the BETRAYAL of the MATA GUJRI JI and CHote SAHIBZADE, WHO BRICKED ALIVE, CUZ A BRAHMIN TURNED THEM IN to the GOVERNON OF SIRHIND FOR GOLD, .... down to the infiltration and betrayal of the KHALSA ARMY by DOgras ("converted hindus"), and the PHYSICAL assault upon SIKH RAJ by hindus of UP/MARATHA- AKA the ANGLO_SIKH wars I/II- where they literally fought against us, for the British (while their infiltrators betrayed our positions/ammunitions from within (sunflower seed instead of gunpoweder was put in to KHALSA cannons FOR THE FIRST BATTLE etc. ) thus we lost the first most important battle of MUDKI over THE nite, although we had defeated them at the end of the day, the general had even written his surrender letter and laid down their arms!!! but the Hindu informants helped ,by giving our number + sunflower seed treat in and by the morning the FATE OF THE SUBCONTINENT CHANGED! THANKYOU HINDIA!).... and lets not forget Arya Samaj/Vivekanda, who joined forces with the Christain missionaries to forcibly convert SIkhs (BTW by forcible cutting young Sikhs' hair, a practice that has RE-EMERGED in SECULAR india), to purify the VEDIC religion and bring it back to its esteemed purity, that could compare to what they called their "younger aryan brothers" aka the British(!!!)... right down to TAGORE (WHO CALLED GURU GOBIND SAHIB A "MISGUIDED PATRIOT" mfer) AND MR. FATHER INDIA, the guy who campaigned extensively in his news papers against the conversion of DALITS to SIKHISM- echoing his Brahmin Ancester's worries of "the enemy within"- he argues that DALITS' conversion to Sikhi would be " worst than converting to Mohemadans!", to top it off he started fasting, 'I will die before their conversion'.... which by the way scared the SHIT out of dalits (dr. ambedkar- who was told that indp. india will be hell for u if the Ganja dies!)... and lets not even talk about post-independence!!!: the betrayal of promises, subsequent criminalization/demonization, assault on the RELIGIOUS BODY- 1984 pogroms, "DISAPPEARANCES" (1980-90s) AND THE ENDLESS VIOLENCE OF ASSIMILATIONISM/SYNCHRETISM OF SIKHS INTO HINDUS BY BJP/RSS MONKEYS, support of LUCHA SAUDA ETC BY govt./ intellgence agencies etc...)


thats prolly the longest sentence ever. but its ok Gill and (lack of)Maan deserve it.

#508
Ruvy
April 27, 2008
05:45 PM

Teg Bir Singh,

Wow, that is one long sentence - a post scriptum yet!

It reminds me of a Russian woman I know who I occasionally telephone (or who calls me occasionally) who talks like that.

But she is so damned fascinating when I can get past her accent!

She was raised to view people from the United States as the enemy, and I was raised to view people from Russia as the enemy. Here we are today, both in Israel, very much on the same side, yet with very different points of view) realizing that it will be the English speaking Israelis and the Russian speaking Israelis who together will have to drag Israel out of the terrible rut it has fallen into.

I apologize for not being able to respond intelligently to any of the points you've made above - a lot of them fly right past me. It's a stark reminder that my ignorance of the Desi culture, as well as my ignorance of the history of the Indian sub-continent, is encyclopedic.

Of course, if I start talking about how David Dubinski and a whole bunch of Jewish union leaders in New York defected from the Socialists to vote for FDR in the mid thirties and formed a separate political party to do so....

#509
kela
April 27, 2008
11:15 PM

[Blathering]

#510
Chandra
April 28, 2008
12:09 AM


First we had two rank anti-muslims, now we have Mr. Bir Singh telling us fanciful stories about how sikhs are/were treated in India. This thread will never end

#511
Anamika
April 28, 2008
05:56 AM

Yes, Dr Sahib should be proud of creating such a ruckus! :-)

Meanwhile, the answer to why there aren't "organised" camps killing Palestinians is that perhaps because the Nazis were a little too "primitive" in their version of the "final solution." We know exactly how their methods were improved by many who went to South Africa, and of course how they were exported from apartheid RSA to Israel. Underlying premise of these post-1945 "advances" is the same: Why get your hands dirty - or use increasingly scarce natural resources - when there are so many other methods of killing off the Palestinians?

For those who care:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-israel-is-suppressing-a-secret-it-must-face-816661.html

Kind of ironic for desis that the expulsion of Palestinians was called Operation Dalit! Perhaps more of our Zionist cheerleaders need to think about that....

#512
Man Singh
URL
April 28, 2008
02:04 PM

Bhai Morris # 499

Isreal is surviwing in middle east like Tongue surrounded by 32 teeths. Danger at every moment.

It is doing everything possible it can do to pritect itself.

The day on which attacks against Isreal will stop, I am sure this secular and democratic country will never be hindernace to peace.

With due respect to your point of view, I feel Isreal should do everything within its reach for the safety of its people.

Indians can not digest this fact only because they are habitual of getting beaten for last 1300 years.

They are thankful to Gandhi only because gandhi taught them to get beaten.

They never thank Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj and Shivaji for the reasons just opposite ie these greatmen taught Indians to be strong and not to tolerate tyranny.

Bhai Chandra # 510

Does speaking against jehadis and other tyrants makes a person `Anti Muslim' in your dictionery?

Bhai Commonsense # 505

Indians has a typical instinct. they don'nt want to understand simple logic. they understand complicated explainations. I remember in my Univresities professors publishing research papers in foreign Journals containing complicated infinite series and partila differential equations flooded with large size matrices were considererd great in psite of that fact that their research was useless for Indian market. The Professors who worked for reasearch pertaining to local needs never got recognition.

Same mentality I am seeing here people `getting sick' os simple analogy of villagers and attacking dacoits only because our minds are trained to understand complicated things only not simple ones irrespective of their accuracy or usability. My freind people infected by Macauley virus used to get sick at very sight of normnal Indian presence. What can I do. I am a villager and will remain so. I have faced ground realities and speak based on `aankhin dekhi' and not based on any `online garbage'.


Bhai tegbirsingh # 507

I do agree with you on almost each point other then putting blames of treachery on whole communities for the sin of individuals.

Just like All Mughals were not bad, all Muslims are not jehadis or terrorists, same way all Dogras, Brahmins, rajputs are not good or bad in totality. I do not agree with you to put blame on head of all Hindus for brutal crimes against humanity in 1984 by congress goondas.

Namakharams and gaddars are found in every community and every religious group and every country.

Yes I strongly feel why Sikhs can'nt be given separate homeland when 24% Muslims can be alloted 28% land in spite of the fact that Muslim Invaders always plundered and insulted people, culture and religions orginated from soil of India and Sikhs on the other hand always fought to defend this land, people and cultural values from the tyrrany of invaders and their associates.


#513
Man Singh
URL
April 28, 2008
04:41 PM

Bhai Tegbir Singh # 507

Another issue I beg to differ is about who instigated Jehangir to torture Guru Arjan Dev Ji.

We have to refer Tujuk E jehangiri for the same.

Jehangir says that he has this thing in his mind to eliminate Guru Arajan or convert him to Islam for long time. Clearly Jehangir himself was a crook and tyrant. Therefore blaming Vajir Chand is just half truth.

www.searchsikhism.com/arjandev.html
The Qazis and other fanatic Muslims were furious. They would sometimes, meet the Emperor and complain to him against the Guru. They said in Goindwal, which is on the bank of the river Beas in the Punjab, there is a religious teacher named (Guru) Arjan. He is looked upon as a holy saint. he has a great following. He preaches a religion which is opposed Islam. It is called Sikhism. He has become very popular. Not only Hindus, but even Muslims, are being charmed and captured by his ways, life and teachings. From all sides crowd of people Hindus and Muslims flock to him. They express devotion to him and faith in him. They give up their own religion and embrace the religion preached by him. Muslims in large numbers have become his followers or Sikhs. More and more are doing so every day. All this is happening in the empire of a Muslim Emperor. It is very sad and saddening. It is your duty to stop this. We appeal to you to do your duty towards Islam.

Jahangir, as a matter of fact, was of the same view. As he says in his Memories called Tuzuk-i-Jahangiri, he had been having the same thoughts for many years. For many years, writes he, the thoughts had been coming into my mind that I should either put an end to his (Guru Arjan's) life and activities, or bring him into the fold of Islam. He assured the qazis and other that he would do this at the first suitable opportunity. Emperor Jahangir had thus clearly and finally made up his mind to convert or kill Guru Arjan Dev. He was on the look-out for a suitable chance and excuse to carry out that resolve. That chance came to him about six months after his having occupied the throne. he got the long-sought chance in the rebellion of his eldest son, Khusrau.

Almost same naration is written at

www.sikhlionz.com/martyrguruarjandevji.htm

Well as I wrote earlier let's learn to differentiate between Jehadis and ordinary Muslims, Missioneries and ordinary christians, congress goondas and ordinary Hindu, few Greedy Priests and All Brahmins etc.

All muslims, christians ,Hindus and Brahmins should not be hanged for sins of Jehadis, missioneries, criminasnal and goodndas of a political party and few greedy priests respectively.

Therefore if somebody stereotypes whole community for acts of few it is not right.

Let's make our opinion based on individual's character and not based on whcih community he/she belongs to.

#514
Chandra
April 29, 2008
12:41 AM

Man Singh

No, speaking against jehadis is not wrong. But being anti-muslim is wrong. I have no doubt that you are anti-muslim.

#515
TEG BIR SINGH
April 29, 2008
06:07 AM


NOT THAT I GIVE A RATS ARSE ABOUT CONVINCING ANY OF YOU SELF-OBSESSED BLOGGER ACTIVISTS, BUT NO MATTER WHAT INDIAN STATE DOES TO APOLOGIZE, THE EVENTS OF 1984/2002 ARE ONE OF THE WORST EVENTS THAT EVER HAPPENED IN THE HISTORY OF THE SUBCONTINENT AND THE MAJORITY COMMUNITY BARES THE BURDEN OF RESPONSIBLE FOR THEM. THE "MODERATE" CONGRESSMEN, OR THE "RELIGIOUS" BJP- BOTH ARE MANIFESTATIONS OF THE COLLECTIVE OF HINDU UNDERSTANDING OF SELF IN POST-COLONIAL INDIA. THEY COMPLEMENT EACH OTHER, SUPPLEMENT EACH OTHER. BOTH AWARD THEIR MURDERERS/FIGHTERS WITH LUCRATIVE POSITIONS IN STATE/CENTER GOV. AND GLORIFY EXTERMINATION AS A MODE OF ENGAGEMENT WITH THE OTHER('SIKHRE' N 'SULLE').
AND IN MY OPINION BOTH DESERVE TO BE LINED UP PUBLICALY AND BUTCHERED WITHOUT MERCY- JUST TO PURIFY THE LAND OF THE BLOOD OF HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF INNOCENT VICTIMS OF MASSACRES, AND POLICE ENFORCED GENOCIDES (PUNJAB/KASHMIR/ASSAM).

BUT I AM STILL RELIGIOUS ENOUGH TO HAVE FAITH THAT SOMEWHERE, CONCEALED BEHIND THE MUTIPLICITY OF VEILS- OF HINDU NATIONALISM (CONG/LEFT) AND CHAUVISM (BJP), THERE ARE "REAL" HINDUS WHO HAVE THE COURAGE TO TAKE ETHICAL ACTION. UNTIL THAT BREED OF UBER-HINDUS DISCLOSES ITSELF, I AM JUSTIFIED TO CHALLENGE THE SINCERITY OF THE HINDU MASSES AS HUMAN BEINGS, AND POINT OUT THEIR PAST ACTS OF VIOLENCE-HENCE THE BRIEF HISTORY OF BETRAYALS BY HINDUS.(# 507).

(PS- MAAN S. SIKHS ARE PERHAPS THE ONLY PEOPLE IN THE NORTH THAT TRULY UNDERSTAND MUSLIM EXTREMISM, AND DEFINITELY THE ONLY ONES THAT GAVE IT A PROPER MANLY RESPONSE- I.E. BY UPROOTING MOGHALS, INVADING KABUL, DEFEATING OF ABDALIS, SETTING UP OUR OWN RULE/AKA MAHA PUNJAB), AND ONCE WE ESTABLISHED OUR KINGDOM WE DID NOT GO AROUND KILLING PREGNANT MUSLIM WOMEN/CHILDREN TO PROVE OUR MANILNESS- AS CONGRESS/RSS HINDU COWARDS DID IN 1984/2002. WE DID NOT WIN OUR RULE IN A LOTTERY FROM THE BRITISH, BUT TOOK WITH THE FORCE OF OUR CHEST, AS THEY SAY.
BUT IN TARGETING ALL MUSLIMS AS EXTREMISTS-IN-THE-MAKING, LOOKING AT THEM FROM THE HINDUTVA LINE OF HATRED, YOU ARE BETRAYING YOUR OWN PAST. HENCE MY ADVICE- HAVE MORE MAAN (IN YOUR HERITAGE), AND REJECT THIS COWARDLY/RSS METHOD OF ENGAGING WITH THE OTHER.

#516
Morris
April 29, 2008
01:24 PM

Man Singh #512
Most of the time I see what you are getting at when you talk about village man and a decoit.And I can see your point. In palestanian issue I have some difficulty. Let me put it the way you would do it.

You live in a village. Suppose a person you are not particularly fond of, obtain a leagl title to a part of your property and evicts you from there. You are not very happy about it and you question the legitimacy of the village council that granted the deed. You are seeking some retribution. Being frustrated you start throwing stones at this neighbour. But he is very powerful. He has got guns and other ammunition and he is backed by the most powerful honcho at the village council. Now rather than settle your grievance he grabs additional land from you that is not part of the orininal deed. You continue throwing stones and he uses his ammunition. Things got out of control. Faraway neighbours put pressure and both of you agree to negotiate. While sitting with you to negotiate he sends members of his family to grab some additional land of yours. Now regrdless of the validity of the original deed, who is decoit here?

Be an impartial observer my friend. Take off your coulered glasses. I clearly understand that this neighbour is surrounded by you and your hostile friends. But all of you are no match compared to his strength. Futhermore, you and most of your friends are now willing to recognise the legitimavy of the origiginal deed. Are'nt you entitled to ask him why he is robbing you of this additional land at a gun point. Incidently the village council while supporting the original deed does not approve of this new land grabs. Now who is decoit?

#517
Man Singh
URL
April 29, 2008
03:17 PM

Bhai Chandra # 514

At least you showed the courage to denounce Jehadis which many others still feel shy of only due to scare of getting branded as `Anti Muslim' just for being against crimes against humanity by Jehadis.

Again let me put it further that I am against `crimes against humanity' by Jehadis as I firmly belive that even jehadis are also alive due to same divine spark that keeps me alive and hence ther is no question of hating any creature in this universe. It is demonic activities of theirs that deeserve denouncing. Jehaids are attacking India since 713 AD and continuining till date.

May I might have used world `muslim' sometimes but Charndra I intend `jehaids' only at that time and I request you to please go by the moral of the story and not by wordings as you know I am a village boy and my choice of wording may not be as professional.

You want to brand me `anti muslim' without any reason you are free to do that Chandra. But I clarify again that i am against tendency of agression, conversion , invasion and classifying humanity based on way of worship rather then their behaviour. I am against jehadis not because of their way of worship but because their criminal acts againt humanity.

I am sure you are pretty aware that in last 1300 years of jehadi attacks on India around 80 million Indians have lost their lives and 30,000 places of worship plundererd destroyed or converted in to Mosques as per records of Muslim writers only.

If you feel condemning these acts of violence and plunder to our motherland makes me `anti muslim' let it be. I have to serve my moptherland no matter who brands me what for this act? I can'nt see my mother being insulted by looters for the fear of Chandra branding me `anti attacker'.

My priority is safety of my land, culture and people. naturally invaders and their Associates will brand me `anti invaders' title. So what?

#518
Anamika
April 29, 2008
03:56 PM

Morris, thanks for that analogy. :-) Except it makes very little difference in this rather circular debate with the dhimmi/shikseh haters, those with little grip of history, and those who argue on the basis of god's personal advice.

Neither of the two Indian supporters of the Israeli cause are interested in reading up on history of that region. All they are concerned about is that Israel is "against" the Muslims (who get lumped together as one group - forget ethnic, religious, cultural, racial divisions). And unfortunately, they don't make the difference between "jihadis" and "Muslims." As we see from the Palestinian issue, kids throwing stones at an occupying army are "jihadi" enough for this lot!

Thus Arafat is the same as Osama bin Laden...not because of anything else but because of their Islamic names. And Sadat Hussain is in the same basket with the Ayatollah and Gen Musharraf. And this is just the political leaders from that swathe of land to the west of us.

Forget about the people! The Palestinian cause is the same as the Egyptian one, and the Iranian political ambitions are the same as that of the Taliban. Because HEY, they are ALL MUSLIMS! And of course THEY (THE MUSLIMS) conquered OUR lands - who/which Muslims and WHAT lands - is not going to be dealt with any degree of logic.

Just a generic sense of hatred of one religion and an vague sense of discontent unite to create that wonderful phenomenon we have been discussing: Islamophobia!

Dr. Dasgupta - the OIC may have gotten it wrong and/or not articulated the ways Israel/Palestine issues plays a key part in fostering Islamophobia. But perhaps an analysis of this thread will reveal EXACTLY how that process occurs. Its been illuminating!


#519
Man Singh
URL
April 29, 2008
03:58 PM

Bhai Chandra # 504

Does your logic allow you to brand an Anti British, Anti colonialialist, anti imperialist freedom fighter as `anti christian'?

If yes then I have no issues you branding me `anti muslim' merely for being anti jehadis. If no please rethink last part of your post 504

#520
Man Singh
URL
April 29, 2008
04:27 PM

Bhai Morris # 514

Whatever you have written in this post is absolutely logical and absolutely humanistic. Yes your post stands for values exactly for upholding which I was tortured by Indian police.

But your starting is a bit late start.

What exactly happened was :

The the land originally belonged to that disliked person to whom village council gave legitimacy. This disliked person some back was kicked out of this land and I retained its ownership from some illegal occupant.

Thanks to village council this `disliked person' got justice.

I strated terrorisng this `disliked person' as I tasted the blood and became habitual of bullying this `disliked person' for centuries.

But situation changed. This looted beaten and kicked out opressed and disliked person leant in due course of time how to deal with tyrants and occupiers. This `disliked person' talked in the language which I used when I captured their land.

In every negotiation this `disliked person' made just one request. Stop attacking him otherwise He'll occupy more. I never stopped attacks on `disliked person' due to their habitual arrogance of traditional bullying habbits and I attacked him even if I was having stones in my hands along with missiles side by side. Fro press reporters I showed my children with stones in hand and in real I attacked this `disliked person' with sophisticated missiles with the help of political,economic and military might of 66 theorcratic countries.

This `disliked person' gave equal rights to all in its territory while I declared my territory as `theocratic state'.

I support a secular democracy vis a vis a theorcracy.

I support justice to original owner of the land and it is my mistake not to accept the principle of `live and let live' with original habitants of the land.

I have to mend my ways. I should stop attacking this `disliked person'. I should sit on negotiated table and merge with a secular democracy rather then creating a violent theocratic state along with 66 other fanatic theorcracies on the earth.

Therefor Morris It is me who is creating troble and not this `disliked person'. My crooked ways to befool the world stones on front and missiles on back is dangerous for me only as `this disliked person is strong enough to defend itself. This person is not ready to commit same mistake it did when his land was taken away my me.

Yes now on humanistic ground and chnaged times:

1. Palestenians should recognise existence of Isreal and stop attacking Isreal with Missiles and bombs.

2. Isreal should recognise state of palestine and land should be shared.

3. West bank and gaja strip togather total area equivalent should be handed over to Palestenians on borders of Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia and Jordon to avoid useless conflicts.

`Live and let live' should be adopted as mantra for peace and mutual respect. Any ideology religious or secular should be banned if it proclaims monopoly of truth.

Truth is one by explained in many ways by wise men.

Your analysis is 100% correct for Tibet case though. Thanks for sharing. It was well written and pretty logical hardly anything to disagree with.

#521
Man Singh
URL
April 29, 2008
04:46 PM

Anamika # 518

Thous this post is not for me. But you have refered `two Indian supporters of Isreali cause' and I feel I am one of them.( I am be wrong also?).

I do not comment on rest of your post other then one point discussed below because I know pretty well that I do not think the way you are opining about my thinking. I may have different view of history then that written by imperialists. I strongly belive that view point of `lions' and `hunters' will always differ. Supporters of hunters will always glorify the hunters as great man as imperilaists do about Columbus and vasco da Gama though I take them tyrants and hunters.

Being an associate of `victim' lions of jungle, pleae allow me to live with lions view of history with in my opinion will always be more honest and truthful compare to history written by associates of `Hunters'.

The point of disagreement I would like to highlight is where you have intentionally used a gross misapprpriation is `branding kids throwing stones on occupying army'.

The allegation of over simplication you are putting on people like me while you are doing the same yourslef.

I am suprised why you are assuming people to be blind and unable to see Missiles being shooted by hamas terrorists hiding behind Burqa clad women and stone carrying kids?

Anamika you belive it or not, you give Kashmir to them, in next 50 years they'll demand Assam.

You give Palestine them today, they'll demand whole Isreal within 10 years.

I hope these tow dispute settle in our life time anamica and we live further 50 years to be the witness if my analysis is true or not?

May God bless you all to live for another 50 years after settlement of Kashmir and Palestine Issues.

#522
Man Singh
URL
April 29, 2008
05:08 PM

Bhai Tegbir Singh # 515

Yes you are right. 1984 and 2002 are blot on India and yes you are right Indians can'nt get rid of their black face just by calling these events as mischief of congress or BJP goondas.

Communists are the third lot who are embodyment fo gaddari and namakharami to this country since their inception.

Now there are two ways to followers of purity.

1. Go alone , accummulate power and do away this British system run by `kaale angrej' in India. This path is definitely difficult and self asessment of our strenth will be exteremly crucial for the success.

2. choose the lesser evil out of the three above exactly the way netaji Subhash did by associating with Japan and Germany. British were bigger demons for netaji and he choose another demon Hitler to weaken the bigger demon British.

In Indian context, BJP is still a smaller demon then congress and communists. BJP's Godfather RSS at least by words always respects and propgates pure teachings of the land though with some distortions. I myself got interest in martyredom of great Gurus and sahibjadas through one of my University colleage who used to attend RSS activities. I feel they are spreading teachings of great Gurua all over India more then all Sikh organisations togather.

Official history books in Indian schools finish freedom struggle of great Gurus merely in 2-3 lines while chapters are dedicated to Aurangjeb and Jehangir. Sikhs publishing all their literature in Punjabi which majority of Indians do not understand.

RSS is an all India organisation with establishments From Kashmir to kanyakumari and from Gujrat to Assam doing ground work to creat awareness about `true values' of India our great Gurus sacrificed for.

I feel it will be optimised way to use this ground work of RSS to inject `real values'. Of course a risk of percolation of impurity in followers of purity is always there.

Right thinking people will use lesser eveil to weaken bigger evil and then clean up the lesser evil.

Yes it is absolutely true that without cleaning up the of congress/BJP/communist type duplicios forces "REAL" HINDUS, that BREED OF HINDUS WHO HAVE THE COURAGE TO TAKE ETHICAL ACTION, will remain frustrated and will dare not DISCLOSE ITSELF.

#523
Gill
April 29, 2008
05:34 PM

Anamika wrote

>>>>Neither of the two Indian supporters of the Israeli cause are interested in reading up on history of that region. All they are concerned about is that Israel is "against" the Muslims<<<<

Now that is totally your purgative!!!!! Go back and see the only thing that was objected was when you started comparison between India and Israel and brought in Punjab etc!!!!!

And once again where have I chosen any sides and anyway why do I have to choose a side?? If you missed it I had said right from the beginning that this it is simply
"Intifida" Vs "Zionism" issue and has nothing to do with India. It is only you who brought in weird analogies with India and Hindus etc. And sadly you have already chosen a side and I haven't. And ofcourse that's a problem with you! yes I do know the history of the region. Of course it's not the biased version that you want us to prescribe to.

Not only "Islamphobia" but something new is being propagated on this thread and that is "Zionophobia" and "anti-jew" sentiments..... From your reading it seems that if you are not anti-jew and pro-palestine than you are "anti-muslim"!!!! And you portraying the notion that being a "anti-jew" is ok, acceptable and trendy but at the same time "anti-muslim" is a crime!!! Nice!!! Indeed its been illuminating! And ofcourse your supporter TB Singh's history version was illuminating too. Similarities and standards were very evident with your versions !!!!!

#524
Anamika
April 29, 2008
06:05 PM

Gill, I suggest you scroll up a few metres on this thread. I prefered to remain out of the debate on Sikh history very simply because it has little space in this debate except to highlight the ridiculous logic of lumping all "Muslims" in one basket. THAT particular delight - btw - has been served up by you and your "village anti-dacoit" friend.

When "Muslims" - nebulous and generic - are considered to "steal the Jewish homeland" 2000 years ago, that is Islamophobia! When European colonialism is justified with "Muslims stole Jewish lands," that is Islamophobia (funny, how you talk of colonizer's history. Just WHO do you think did the colonizing of Palestine resulting the in EXPULSION, RAPE AND MURDER of poor locals?)

When there is no difference made between seven year olds throwing stones at soldiers who shoot them down with impunity simply because the kids are Palestinians, that is Islamophobia. When "Muslims" are somehow considered to "steal" Indian land, that is ALSO Islamophobia. When there is no distinction made between a fanatic minority and over a billion mostly simple people who want to get on with their lives, that is Islamophobia.

Lets BE ABSOLUTELY CLEAR THAT I AM IN NO WAY SUPPORTING JIHAD (Sorry, editors, nothing in small case seems to bloody well get understood) OR VIOLENCE BY ANY SIDE! What I do object to is the idea that ANY land is granted by god and therefore its conquest - violent and bloody as it is - is morally justifiable. And that land can be South Africa or Israel or Iraq or Lebanon (yes, ALL of these have used "divine command" as the excuse to kill, rape, pillage, rob).

What I also object to is the sickening logic applied by you and some of the other posters that some lives are more valuable and therefore more worth saving that others. And in this logic, there is a constant shift: so in colonial times, it was anyone who wasn't white and Christian; in Nazi Germany it was the Jews, the Poles, the homosexuals, the gypsies, the mentally/physically handicapped. In today's world its the Muslims.

Evidence of this twisted sick logic (and Islamophobia!) is to be found in this thread itself: The photograph of the little boy shot down by a rocket elicited disdain and contempt. There is not even a response on the Independent story posted today. That silence on your part (and MS) speaks louder than all your words.

You lot talk of "saving" India? Well which India are you saving - given that "Muslims" stole "our" land? The one without Mir and Ghalib? The one without Taj Mahal? And Qutab Minar? And Jal Mahal? The one without Umrao Jaan Ada? Without tandoori chicken and biryani? Without chikankari of Lucknow and brocade of Banaras?

And as far as Kashmir is concerned - Indian hands aren't exactly clean.

And you're talking Assam? The nearly 200 million Bangladeshis escaping the rising sea-levels and building global catastrophe aren't going to fit into Assam. And flee they will when their lands are flooded and there is no food. And they will flee to India. What will you do then? Call them "Muslims" and shoot the millions at the border? Hopefully this gives you some more fuel for the Islamophobia that drives you and your ilk.

#525
Morris
April 29, 2008
06:05 PM

Man Singh

Truth is in beholdrs' eyes. But truth devoid of reality is no truth it is only a vision and often faulty one. North american indian can say that the whole of North Amrica belongs to us indians. But that is totally devoid of reality. They can have a vision that some day that will happen. Those who are unwilling to face the reality usually create massive catastrophy. History is full of those who did exactly that.

Furthemore, your unfriendly neighbour is not grabbing your land on the basis that he has a historical claim. He has not expained why he is doing it. He is just simply stealing it.

The fact that Islamic countries are theocracy and Israel is a democracy has nothing to do with this issue. I do not support theocracy. In fact I absolutely despise it. But even your enemy is entitled to justice. Peace without justice is only tentative and will need a few generations to settle in. It will only establish that might is right. Not a very good concept for a civilized society. And with your kind of thinking a few hundred years from now if palestanians became more powerful they can reclaim their land back just like your unfriendly neighbour is doing now. That would be a chaotic world.

No one has perpetual right to any land. It is the people living on the land that counts. Any change in that has to have international recognition. It seems like you want to be in the unilatral world. That is what Bush did. I say Iraq invasion was illegal. The world is not perfect but there is no harm in trying. I have no disagreement with you about critisism of Islam religion in general and mainly Jihadis. But I have a great deal of difficulty in visualizing a peaceful world with your kind of thinking.

#526
commonsense
April 29, 2008
06:58 PM

Yikes, this discussion is still going strong!

Commonsense tells me that Man Singh is spinning a tale mired in contradictions, that no "me a simple village boy fending off dacoits" can resolve:

Exhibit #1: Man Singh: (#520)

""2. Isreal should recognise state of palestine and land should be shared.

3. West bank and gaja strip togather total area equivalent should be handed over to Palestenians on borders of Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia and Jordon to avoid useless conflicts.""

Patently contradicts"

Exhibit #2 Man Singh #521

"You give Palestine them today, they'll demand whole Isreal within 10 years."

No matter. I am certain, that Man Singh will get around this contradiction by spinning another yarn about innocent villagers and villain dacoits. Using his own spelling for Israel as "Isreal", I cannot help but ask, "Is he for real"??



#527
Gill
April 29, 2008
10:02 PM

Anamika #524

Like i said before for some people it is simply a "Intifida" Vs "Zionism" issue.

Secondly in your post you are simply supporting and justifying Arab Imperialism in other parrts of the world!!!!!

#528
Chandra
April 30, 2008
12:04 AM

Man Singh

All we will have to do is run through your previous 500 posts. Most of your posts are unproven stories of hinduism but those that are not are rabidly anti-islamic. That is what i can discern. If my interpretation is wrong, all we wil have to do is ask every regular poster here. I suspect most of them will agree with me. The irony is at the end of the day both of us are likely to vote for the same political party in an election.

#529
Chandra
April 30, 2008
12:17 AM

Man Singh- 517

I am not sure how much of the information you present is credible. Fundmentally, it is not with delight that one can think of 1200 years of being ruled by foreigners. First muslim invaders from the north and then Goras. But i see no point in going back to history because it is pointless.

I share your idea of India having a close relationship with Israel. But that does not mean we will have to agree with all the lies that are thrown at us .

rgds

#530
Anamika
April 30, 2008
05:56 AM

Gill: "Secondly in your post you are simply supporting and justifying Arab Imperialism in other parrts of the world!!!!!"

REALLY? Please explain just HOW you reached that ridiculous conclusion?

Various threads on DC, that you are welcome to scroll through and find, will show you the following: I am VEHEMENTLY opposed to the policies that US allows Saudi to pursue; hate the fact that China is ensuring that killings continue in Darfur (yes carried out by "Arabs").

I happen to believe that between oil money from the Gulf and Islamophobia from the west, contemporary Islam has lost its moorings. I also happen to recognise that most of the wars in the ME between Arab/Persian/Turkic nations have little to do with religion and more to do with geostrategic concerns just as in Christian or non-Muslim regions. BUT this in NO WAY justifies the killings by Saddam of Iranian civilians, or indeed the Kurds, or other Iraqis. Or by Saudi of Afghans, Somalis, et al. Or indeed of any other people by ANY NATION/SOCIETY/COMMUNITY.

NOW YOU BETTER EXPLAIN HOW I SUPPORT MUSLIM/ARAB IMPERIALISM. Seems that you - like your mate Mullah Ruvy - end up slinging unsubstantiable accusations simply because you have no grounds for a rational debate. That might work in US politics (ie "swiftboating") but doesn't work here.

For the record, I firmly believe that there needs to - as Irshad Manji argues - a reformation from within of the religion but that will not happen until the rest of the world (primarily the West, but China and Russia do a pretty good supporting act) stops pulverizing Islamic societies directly and indirectly. That Islam is at its weakest point in history - in political and economic terms - and if we look at the other "reformation" - a moment of victimization is hardly likely to drive a Biblical religion to self-reform. Yet most Muslims just want to get on with their lives.

Moreover, in the past fifty years, more Muslims have been killed by non-Muslim forces/nations/ weapons and for pursuit of western interests (you could use the "Islamist" logic and call it a Judeo-Christian coalition) than non-Muslims killed by Muslims. I would just suggest you look at the deaths of the Lebanese from mines laid by French and British during WW2 in the past sixty years (btw the maps for these were handed to Israel but not to the Lebanese who STILL cant identify and remove the mine-fields). I SUGGEST YOU DO YOUR READING!



#531
commonsense
April 30, 2008
07:02 AM

Gill and Singh,

Lonely out there without the lad from jerusalem? Have you guys started conversing with G-d yet?

#532
Gill
April 30, 2008
09:24 AM

Anamika #530

Do you even know what Arab imperialism is? What that has to do with US or oil? You claim to be well versed in history than why this non-tangibility? Is this what you do if someone does not support your views?


Following statement of yours totally supports "Arab Imperialism"
<<<>>>

And as usual in Indian reference also you legitimate, justified and supported "Arab imperialism" with the following statement of yours

<<<>>>

But the irony is that to support your "cause" you totally contradicted yourself with the following statement.

<<< What I do object to is the idea that ANY land is granted by god and therefore its conquest - violent and bloody as it is - is morally justifiable.>>>>>>

I really wonder how Arab Imperialism spread from West Africa to all the way to India????? Or it is all a "strategy" to win "favors" maybe because you fear that in coming time the Arab Imperialism of India will be completed??????

#533
Anamika
April 30, 2008
01:32 PM

Gill - FINALLY we get to the root of this. All this support of killing Palestinians is about nothing more than weeping about what happened in 1080 and after to northern India!

So do give us this wonderful history where Arab Imperialism happened? Are we talking about the Arabs? Or the Turks? OR the Mongols? Or the Persians? The only thing these share is a nominal religious identity. Its a bit like talking of Christian Imperialism as opposed to French, Spanish, Portuguese, British, Dutch or Belgian colonization - each of these had extremely different agendas, priorities and experiences. S

o if we aren't talking of 500 years of "Christian imperialism", do explain how we are going to talk of "Arab imperialism" - especially since various "Arabs" spent good three hundred years being colonized by some of the afore-mentioned "Christian imperialists" OR indeed by the Turks (but these dont count because who cares beyond lumping everyone as Muslims!)

Keep going. Your Islamophobia reeks strong enough...

#534
Gill
April 30, 2008
02:54 PM

Anamika- Once again you are speculating, I am not weeping you are weeping!!!! You have a problem with someone not accepted your versions.

Again no where I have supported killing anyone and you claim I support killing of Palestinians!!!! Show where I have supported any such notions.... Only place I differ is on the "players" who are responsible for their "misery". You only have one track mind and that is the "jews" and "Israel" only are the culprit .. this is where we differ.

Nice try!!!! once again on your selective non-tangibility on "Arab Imperialism". Now you are coming up with some new concept called "Christian Imperialism". Thanks for giving a new name to "western imperialism". No one knew that sole driving force was religious and cultural domination?????

Now lets see how conveniently you are choosing to ignore the Rashidun Caliphate that spread from North Africa to Iran. And to this day it is sort of "Ram Rajya" for Islam. And even today it is used by Islam and its followers as a mandate for world domination and global expansion. Its expressed goal is the conquest of the world and by Islam. And every new ethnic group subdued and converted by them were encouraged to carry this mission on.....

And this goal and mission for the institution of Islam was continued by very same group of people that you mentioned Turks established the Selijuk Islamic empire, Kurds the Ayyubid, Persians Khwarezmi and later again by Turks established the Ottomon empire and ofcourse the Mughal by Turkish-Mongolians in south asia...... And driving force was simply Islam only....And effects of Arab Imperialism are so strong that you find Indian Muslims lined up to go to Iraq etc to fight for the cause or Bosnia or Chechnya..... Indian Muslims are naming their kids Osama or Saddam etc... if you convert tomorrow you will not be allowed to use Anamika as your name you will have to find yourself a "Arab" name!!! oops a brand new "identity" !!!

#535
Man Singh
URL
April 30, 2008
03:16 PM

Bhai Morris # 525

My type of thinking is difficult to digest by english educated elite because it sounds to be a bit crude.

But my freind how to make peace between a villager and dacoits and how to settle them as good neigbours.

My views were :

1. Dacoits should stop attacking the village first.

2. Dacoits should apologise for past sins
3. Looted items of villagers should be returned back wherever possible and due compnesation should be paid wherever return is not possible.
4. Villagers should forgive dacoits for their sins and strenthen themselves togather along with exodacoits to a level that in future no any other gang of dacoits dare to attack them.

Thus with mutual cooperation and mutual respect after ignoring the past, they can establish a peaceful and prosperous community togather.

This formula has been used in Canada and Australia. Invading whites apologised for their past sins. Their lands were returned wherever possible and few billions were given to them as compensation. And arrangement is moving peacefully and natives and invaders are prospering togather.

I am prety sure the similar arrnagemnts can happne in Isreal/palestine and India also.

Unfortunately in India villagers are ready to forgive invaders but invaders are adamant and arrogant and are demanding their `right to plunder' and some of our own brothers and sisters are seen supporting their unreasonable demand.

#536
temporal
URL
April 30, 2008
04:01 PM

MS:

* single 'them' out
* try them in a court of law
or
* line them up outside a gas chamber

be happy
stop wailing

ps: all three of you should also stop wailing and whining and offer a solution

a final solution

and not hide behind the skirt of "me a simpleton"

#537
Ruvy
April 30, 2008
05:48 PM

Gill,

I've been following your debate/argument/discourse with Anamika, and just want to make a couple of helpful points, if I can. If you examine Anamika's comments, at some point, you'll find her expressing her disgust with Judaism and all other "Semitic" religions.

In my humble opinion, this has some bearing on how she looks at things, and may account, to some degree, for the vehemence of her views. The part I find puzzling is that the folks she pours sympathy on like a mother pouring syrup on warm pancakes, "the poor Palestinians" are just as Semitic as I am, and follow a Semitic religion that she seems to find just as disgusting as Judaism.

I comprehend her looking down her long nose at Semitic religions from her high "Indic" stool of "ancient wisdom" (that's where that "Christian imperialism" remark comes from). But from her point of view, we Jews should be as primitive, murderous and vicious as the Arabs she sympathizes with so. Why sympathize with one bunch of vicious, murderous primitive apes and not another?

There, my good man, is where I think you see her Jew-hatred coming out.

You got to watch this stuff carefully. With Anamika, as with most academics, her real views get hidden behind the Ł50 words she throws around.

#538
commonsense
April 30, 2008
06:16 PM

Temporal to MS:

""and not hide behind the skirt of "me a simpleton""

the tested and tried formula of "chutia ban key doosrey ko chutia banao" (me a village simpleton, what do i know beyond villagers and dacoits....yet....

#539
commonsense
April 30, 2008
06:18 PM

he's BACK!!!

(to many resounding "I told you so's)

#540
Morris
April 30, 2008
06:19 PM

Man Singh

In Canada and Australia decoits recognized the crimes by their ancestors and there was a meeting of minds between decoits and their victims. Therefore they apologized and recociliation was the result. But if I understood right, the decoits you are speaking of do not see the way you see it. Therefore the question of apology and compensation does not arise. You can continue talking to youself but I can assure you no one is going to listen.

My appoach is simple. Live and let live. Learn from history. Avoid making same mistakes. Above all be fair and just to all regardless of how their ancestors behaved and hope that some day they will see the way you see it. In my humble opinion you will not convince any one the way you are approching the subject. You cannot get agreement even among half a dozen people on this thread. Thanks, MS I respect your views. I have nothing more to add.

#541
Man Singh
URL
April 30, 2008
08:12 PM

Bhai Morris #540
"My appoach is simple. Live and let live."
I agree with you 100%.

"Learn from history. Avoid making same mistakes."
Yes and hence be careful with people who robbed you three times in row. They may rob you again.

"Above all be fair and just to all regardless of how their ancestors behaved"

Agree with you 100%

"and hope that some day they will see the way you see it."

I will hope so. But will make sure of minimsing my damages during this transition period.

"In my humble opinion you will not convince any one the way you are approching the subject. You cannot get agreement even among half a dozen people on this thread."

Bhai Morris I'll refer second item you put here `to learn from history' and my view of history is that rich and educated people always associated with rulers and never prefered confrontation as confrontation will lead to their losses no matter humanity goes in to darkness. It were ordinary people all through the history who thought out of box, came up with simple ideas , implemented them and chnaged the history and liberated the humanity.

So called rich and educated people never got convinced with Maharana Pratap, Shivaji, Guru Govind Singh Ji maharaj, Gandhi, Subhash, Bhagat Singh or anybody else. They associated with power (mughal or Britsh).

I am talking about majority of people. Of course few rich donors like Bhamashah helped maharan Pratap to form a new Army.

Bhai Morris, `live and let live' is teh mantra for peace and prosperity to the world and villagers are already follwing that mantra.

Don'nt you feel it is dacoits and their associates who need it more?

Above all majority is not always right otherwise Lalus will never be rulers of the land or a Ph D manmohan Singh will never lick the boots of almost illetral (High School) Sonia Gandhi?

But please tell me what villagers should do if dacoits and their decendents are not ready to change their ways to belive that dacoity is their birth right and they have divine command to loot plunder kill and convert whole humanity to philosophy of dacoity. And there are some opportunitsts among village who are trying to justify this barbaric ideology of dacoits?

Villagers are suffering with dacotophobia and their associates are shouting with loudspeakers `where are dacoits? We can'nt see them? these bloody villagers are unnecessarily demonising the dacoits'

Look dacoits are of various varieties, not one type of lot. they are of various cultural and ethnic backgrounds. How can you generalise them with one type of dacoits?"

Poor villagers are feeling helpless Morris and looking for advise from some educated people.

#542
Man Singh
URL
April 30, 2008
08:28 PM

Temporal # 536

Isreal is minimising its damage at the hands of Jehadis and trying to sort out the matter in secular and democratic way. India is licking the boots of terrorists on the other hand and hence blleding for last 1300 years ir since 713 AD till date.

Prevention is better then cure.

To defend the village from dacoits :

1. Put a security system on each house and eacg village including locks.

2. Villagers should remain alert.

3. beat them back whenever they attack.
4. take even pre emptive attacks some time whenevr information about a plaaning and supply of funds and arms to dacoits is detected.

It is being done my freinds while India bleeding.

You and your team never liked Isreal's approach. they it is you tp produce alternative how to deal with land grabbing dacoits in a way where lesser damage is ensured.

Please share with people. None of you came with idea what a security officer should do when rockets are being fired by terrorists to kill innocent from behind kids carrying stones in their hands and burqa clas women?

Funniest part of the story is that many of you specially Ana can easyly see the kids carrying stones but unable to see rocket fired missiles from their hind?

Either such people are myopic in their vision or have some vested inteerst in attempting to hide the crimes against humanity being perpetrated by using `kids with stones' and `women in Burqa' as human shield by terrorists.

Isreal kills 10 innocent peoplewhile killing the attacker. Opposite to it India allows terrorists a safe passage so that to save 10 people only to enable terrorists to kill 5000 next day?

Please ask this question from the family of Indian army personnel whose son/daughters have sacrificed their lived while defending India while vote greedy politicians allowing terrorists go scot free in place of eliminating them?

We can'nt hang even a terrorist whose death sentence is approved by supreme court of India.

#543
temporal
URL
April 30, 2008
09:58 PM

MS:

thanks but no thanks

read #536

give your final solution

(this is also for the other two)

#544
Chandra
April 30, 2008
11:36 PM

Man Singh 535

How can you comment like the way you did? Just because a few of us pointed out that Israel is wrong, how do we become less patriotic? kitna chatoge Goron ko bhaiya?

#545
Teg Bir Singh
May 1, 2008
02:22 AM

MAAN SINGH
The RSS is no different from communists/congressias- it just chooses a different weapon of destroying the other.

congress/left/british orientalists/multi-culturalists- all have a atheist background, and cannot tolerate the other as long as he is a religious Other. "all criticism begins at criticism of religion" Marx is not off.

RSS is more violent, for its attacks are hidden/deceptive. perhaps not so deceptive if you r sitting on the margins, and observing them: they sympathize with you to ERASE YOU, THEIR GOAL IS PURELY PREDATORY- THE OTHER IS FOOD, HE IS SUMSUMED/CONSUMED, DIGESTED, INTERGRATED INTO THE SELF-SAME: HINDU-"ISM".

both want to erase the difficult otherness of the other, left want us to be punlically atheist, bjp wants us to be publically HINDO. they are not anything different from the BRitish imperialists, or nazi predators: And the Sikhs will sontinue to fight them both.

INDIAN STATE IS NOT A DIVINE REALITY- BUT A PRODUCTION OF AN ACCIDENT OF HISTORY- THE ADVENT OF BRITISH IMPERIALISM IN SOUTH ASIA. NEITHER THE LEFT NOR THE RIGHT, HAS THE RIGHT TO TELL SOVERIEGN MINIORITIES LIKE THE SIKHS, KASHMIRIS, ASSAMIS ETC WHAT TO DO... AFTER 1984/2002, AND ALL THE MASS MURDERING BY POLICE/ARMY FORCES, THESE DEBATES R REALLY RIDICULOUS FOR US ... ITS AS ABSURD AS POST-HOLOCAUST JEWS TRYING TO DEBATE THE MERITS/FLAWS OF GERMAN NAZI VS. SOCIALIST POLITY.

#546
Man Singh
URL
May 1, 2008
12:11 PM

Bhai Chandra # 544

seems u r refering some other post. # 535 no where calls anybody less patriot or so?

Jews Gore nahi hai chandra bhai in first place. and Goras has been described as invaders in this post?

Look Chandra Bhai none of the 3 major powers (Imperialists, Islamists and communists) wants this "only surviwing ancinet civilisation" to remain alive. All these three have a common aim of wiping off all ancinet civilisations and impoose their own on others and capture teh whole world.

Under these circumestances, I feel isreal and jews the best stretegic partners for India.

let's keep our national interests above our emotions as any other country is doing. I don'nt want any medals of greatness at the cost of blood of my countrymen.

I'll embrace the condemnation of the whole universe if I am able to protect my people, my land and my dignity.

Netaji associated with Hitler not because he supported Hitlers ideology. he associated with Hitler only because he felt stretegically Hitler is the best means to weaken tyrant British.

British definitely got weakened after second WW and many countries saw the demise of direct imperilism.

Second argument is enemy of enemy is a freind.

Jehaidis are India's enemies. They are enemy of Isreal as well. So enemy of enemy has naturally become friend.

As I wrote many times my choice of words may not be as professional and effective but please go by moral of my writings and not on the words.

As a Hindu I can never be anti to religion as Lord Krishna openly declared 5200 years back that whatever way people worship, they reach to me also. therefore Muslims or Christaisn or any other religion no matter what way they worship, they worship same G-d. (Bhagwadgeeta chapter 9/23)

problem arises when some among them have tendency to dominate and that's where my opposition starts.

let me repeat again. I am not against Muslims, I am against jehadis. I am not against christians I am against missioneries enagaed in fraudulant conversions. I am not against Athiests , I am against communists engaged in exploiting poor people for their political gains.




#547
Man Singh
URL
May 1, 2008
12:31 PM

Temp # 543

Bhai temp , it seems all your arguments are exhausted. You have no fresh ideas to offer how to deal with terrorists blasting bombs and misiles using `kids with stones' and `womne in Burqa' as human shields.

You are again and again mischeviously `final solution' in my name which is inappropriate, illogical and tantamounts to be in the category of spreading `lies' openly here.

I never gave that stupid `final solution' you are putting in my name.

Again I am requesting all right thinking people to please come up with practical solutions how to minimise the loss of life at the hands of jehadis hiding behind Burqa clad women and stone carrying kids.

I sided with israel's method to kill the terrorists even if 10 civilisans are killed in encounter otherwise terrorists if spared 1000 people the next day. there is a net saving of 990 lives in this approach.

I opposed India's soft cowardly handling of terrorists by getting blackmailed. India released hundreds of terrorists to save few civilians and the same terrorists killed thousands after their free passage. There is net loss of thousands of lives in this approach.

Please come with argument Bhai temporal how you will justify Indian cowardly approach that leads to more deaths in the long run compare to isreal's approach which saves lives in the long run.

mathematics and system analysis is the most logical way to solve problems available till date to humanity. Please don'nt get emotional my freind and use logic and maths to take a decision or support a decision.

#548
temporal
URL
May 1, 2008
12:48 PM

ms:

read 536 again and respond please

what is your final solution ... there is enough said by you earlier....even on this board...(some of that i have quoted to you already) that justifies my asking this query of you and other two who continue to support the nazi way of dealing with issues

#549
Man Singh
URL
May 1, 2008
01:02 PM

Bhai Tegbir Singh # 545

I never gave aclean chit to any party. My point is stretegy. If associating with lesser evil weakens the bigger evil then why not?

Just like netaji Subhash associated with Hitler and weakened British to a level that British were having no choice but to leave India.

You may have better knowledge about RSS. But as I told you I came across with many of its workers who always revered Sikh Gurus and propagated their teachings all over India in more professional way then any Sikh Organisation is doing.

As such I see it as a positive contribution to establish respectability for reve Gurus.

Believe me Guru Teg Bahadur's biolgraphy distributed by RSS in millions inspired me to serve humanity and fight against tyranny.
And I take it as positive contribution no matter what their hidden agenda is.

However I do not agree with you equating Sikh struggle to kashmiris due to various reasons listed below:

It is Kashmiri "Muslims" who are fighting for independence. Muslims being 24% in 1947 were generously given 28% of total land ie 4% more then their legitimate share. As such any futher demand of land on part of muslims makes it immoral, dishonest and sort of agressor on others share of land. When two brothers get separated parental property is divided equally among them and as Muslims got 4% more then their legitimate share it is lust to fight for more. And that also when around half of them remained on Indian side and effectively 12% are enjoying 28% and want to grab more.

Logically if Kashmiri muslims are not happy on `others' land they are living right now, they should fight for their right out of 28% allotted to them as `muslim homeland'.


Assameese movement is simply ISI movement. 35% of assamese population is Muslim already and in next 10-20 years it will become 50%. The leadership will be directly taken over by Muslims by that time and you will realise your mistahe Tegbir Singh for equating your legitimate movement with those dishonest crooks.

#550
Man Singh
URL
May 1, 2008
02:33 PM

Anamika # 524

Sorry for being a bit late in sharing my views on some of the most important issues you have raised in this post.

My conclusion after redaing that post is that you glorifying a Bombay landshark who put all Jhuggi Jhopadi to fire. cleared the land and build multistory mall after making these poor innocent people homeless. And now an elite shopper in the mall is glorifying the builder. Vowww you can's think of Bombay without that Mall? Mypic view never thinks deep ana and seeing th shining malls only.

Anamika your problem is that your viw is absolutely myopic on almost everything you write here. You see just external appearance of the things and make up your opinion. You never bother to go deep and carry out a realistic microspocic analysis of the situation.

I am sharing with you how looked at the surface and I tried to see further deeper.


1."The photograph of the little boy shot down by a rocket elicited disdain and contempt. There is not even a response on the Independent story posted today. That silence on your part (and MS) speaks louder than all your words."

Isreal and palestenians are at war. From Isreale side Army is fighting. On isreal side hamas and many other groups are fighting with open political finacial and military support of 66 muslim countries. These jehadis are using such innocent children and Burqa clad women as human shield and firing missiles and rockets while hinding among them.

You can see only photograph of this boys Anamkica, I see the the bigger picture jehadis hiding behind them firing on Isrealis.

So far as `independent' report is concerned nobody is independent in this world.

"The one without Mir and Ghalib? The one without Taj Mahal? And Qutab Minar? And Jal Mahal? The one without Umrao Jaan Ada? Without tandoori chicken and biryani? Without chikankari of Lucknow and brocade of Banaras?"

Anamika again you seeing the surface and talking only that what masters have taught to speak to their slaves. Please visit Qutab Minar and see the skeleton of roofless structures just within Qutab Minar area and you see the real beauty where defaced Hindu deities are being used as kanguras on top of coluns to support beams. Please visit this time and feel proud of Qutab Minar built on the garbage of your plundered heritage.

Visit tajmahal againt anamika and see Gaushala, Ashvashaala and Musfir Khana. See the ashtakona architenture and a well inside with staricases and ask yourslef why government of India has locked those senitive parts of it.

Search the national archives office in Delhi to find records and see even for small projects carried out by Shah Jahan official orders used to be issued and there is not even s ingle office order associated with gignatic project like Tajmahal. It is really wonder of the world.

Yes Biryani filled with meat of innocent animals tastes for shallow minds who can'nt see the cruelty some innocent creature might have gone through in preparing it and so is the case with chicken curry.

I am giving some of refernces to enhance `beauty' of monuments and taste of tandoor chiken and chcken curry and biryani anamika.

Read the follwing books if you find them in some libraries:
Hasan Nizami's Taj-ul-Maasir
Kamil-ut-Tawarikh of Ibn Asir records
Insha-i-Mahry by Amud Din Abdullah bin Mahru)
Tarikh-i-Firuz Shahi
'Sirat-i-Firoz Shahi'
Hafiz-i-Abru, trns Byani (Paris 1936).
Tazjiyat-al-amsar va tajriyat of Wassaf
Tuzuk-i-Jahangiri
Badshah Nama, Qazinivi
Badshah Nama , Lahori
Manucci, Storia do Mogor vol-II p.451 & Travels of Frey Sebastian Manrique

Please read them to add up taste in ur curries and feel proud of contributions of invaders.

and many more. All of them are available in Aligarh Mulsim University.


Yes slaves suffer a memory loss and can'nt see the cruelty their master is inflicting on them. they just know how to dance with masters commands.

"And as far as Kashmir is concerned - Indian hands aren't exactly clean."

Kashmiri muslims are fighting for more land. India gave 28% land to 24% muslims ir 4% more then their legitimate share as 'separate homeland to Muslims'. Half of muslims are enjoying on `non muslim' land anamika and now if they are not happy like kashmiri muslims they should fight for their share in `separate homeland fro muslims' allotted to them with a generoud 45 extra. Don'nt brand me `anti muslim' against but its is pure mathematics I am talking about. Now how can you say Indian hands are not so clean?

Indian side of soil is under premendous population pressure extra by 12% and Indians are generously allowing them to share everything they have. But in spite of that some are unhappy like an IAS officer Ansari who was convicted for misusing government property and now says he is being victimised only beacsue he is a Muslim. If India is discriminating against Muslims how come this ansari became IAS , reached to seceretray level and with a seniority just next to cabinate secretary.

Anamika tell me if my father has 50 Bighas of land and we five brothers want to get separated and my father genuinely gave 10 Bighas to each.

Out of termendous love in combined family if my kids continue stay in my borthers house even after separation which my brother also allowed them to saty out of generocity. Now if my kids are not happy in their uncles house they should return to their legitimate house ie my house and should not create scenes in uncles house?

If my brother says this to my kids what's wrong in it? Should I blame my brother who took care of my kids for some time after partition out of love and generocity and declare that `ur hands are also not clean'?

to be continueed...

#551
Man Singh
URL
May 1, 2008
02:37 PM

Anamika # 524 Continued

"And you're talking Assam? The nearly 200 million Bangladeshis escaping the rising sea-levels and building global catastrophe aren't going to fit into Assam. And flee they will when their lands are flooded and there is no food."

Your stateement is absolutely fasle here anamika. They are coming to India when their lands are flooded. they are coming on daily practise that bangla desis are infilterating in India and changing demographic balance of 45% of seats of Indian parliament and you will see in next 25 years when Al qaeda will take Indian atomic power through parliamnet of India.

those with myopic view will again riducle me , those who can see further deep will plan something to take corrective actions.

India is not a orphange anamika where people from any wher come and gobble up the jobs of Indians. India itself have enough people. It is Government of Bangla desh to take care of them if flooding is there. Flood are there on Indian side as well. have even any indian gone to other side of border. He/sje will be brutally mudrered immediately.

We are reducung our country to a sarai wher anybody can come and leave their garbage.

And all right thinking people have to establsih some discipline and rule of law. lawless infitreation need to be opposed with same feeling as we do if somebody is trying to enter in to our house with an excuse to be helpless and begger.

Be honest my freinds and share how many of us will allow a stret begger to take shelter in house?

I'll prefer to help him with clothes and money but will ask him to go to dharmashala or temple of his own village/country.

I am not claiming to be the best of course.

#552
commonsense
May 1, 2008
05:06 PM

Man Singh,

Can you please provide an executive summary? Dacoits like me are perpetually short on patience fuel

#553
Ruvy
May 1, 2008
05:23 PM

Anamika,

Reading Man Singh's comments leaves me with the distinct impression that the comfortable English exile is causing you to lose your touch and lose the pulse on your native land so valuable to producing intelligent opinions.

For all of his difficulties with English, Man Singh's points come through with a clarity and determinedness that you are just unable to muster.

Anyway, while you're contemplating all this and fulminating over the latest outrage us vicious fascist/nazi/imperialist colonialist genocidal uncivilized Jewish apes have committed against those poor freedom loving innocent "Palestinians", I think I found a place in London (Sloane Square) that you can go to for a bit of coffee.

Peter Jones appears to be serving what his customers consider an excellent cuppa for only 50 quid a cup. Read more details here.

b'teavón!
Cheers!

#554
commonsense
May 1, 2008
06:14 PM

Man Singh,

Forget about my request for an executive summary.

Can you expand on this further?

""Visit tajmahal againt anamika and see Gaushala, Ashvashaala and Musfir Khana.""

Me no follow... (Ruvy, three dots, right?)

#555
commonsense
May 1, 2008
06:51 PM

Ruvy:

"For all of his difficulties with English, Man Singh's points come through with a clarity and determinedness...."

No doubt, G-d is on his side too....although I wonder what kind of an English tutor you might make...."determinedness"???

#556
commonsense
May 1, 2008
07:09 PM

Determined not to be deterred by the fact that the word "determinedness" does not in fact exist, our friend Ruvy predictably quoted the Torah to prove its existence to all his desi friends who presumably have "difficulties with English".

#557
Anamika
May 1, 2008
07:55 PM

Ruvy - we dont drink coffee in Sloane Square. Thre brew of choice on this end of the pond is still tea. Coffee is best left for those who commune directly with god and buffaloes.

Btw, wonderful, that vote of confidence for your mate's "determinedness" - is that an Americanism or Israelism? On the other hand, you guys match on so many levels - verbal, fanaticism, irrationality. Hey, perhaps he too his one of your "lost" tribes. May be you should check out his geneology for Afridi blood! Or you could just ask god.

#558
Man Singh
URL
May 1, 2008
08:23 PM

CS # 554

Yes it means that a mausoleum do not need gaushala in Taj Campus. An Ashvashala in Taj campus and a Musaphir khan in taj campus.

mausulieums are never built Ashatkoniya (8 cornered) and a rectangular grave is nadir of architectural sense to be put in octagonal shape.

national archives do not have a single office order of Shahjahan to built Taj though it has same farmans even fro some donations to mosques and construction and repare of some other mausoliums.

This all proves that Taj Mahal has been built on a plundered temple (Tejo mahalay).

Even its name where mum has gone from Mumtaj the name of Shahjahan's wife.

Shahjahan married with many women after death of so called `beloved' wife for whom he built taj.

I mean to say that whatever anamika feel proud of are in real symbols of shame.

I request all of you please visit Qutab Minar and see the roofless frames with large number of defaced Hindu dieties statues visible with naked eyes.

But as I wrote earlier Minds of slaves see only what their masters want them to see. Just surface and nothing more then that. Little deeper.

Any Dehlite here please go and paste some photoes for evidence as slaves may not belive me assuming me to be against their master.

CS our slavish mentality makes us feel proud for what we should be ashamed for.

Only people suffering with memory loss or permanent slavery can adore the plundere of their house of killer/rapists of his mother.

Books written by official chroniclers very clearly depict that From Qutab Minar to Taj mahal
these structures are strained by blood of innocent Indians.

Any person with little bit self respect to his/her nation/culture and religion will never feel proud for such mean achivement of enslavers and invaders.

Jehangir brutally murdered a saint like Guru Arjan Dev for no reason.

Aurangjeb murederd Guru Teg Bahadur and sahibjada of Guru Gobind Singh in walla of Sarhind which where they were burnt alive for not converting to islam.

I understand Anamika forgot to mention Walls of sarhind without which she can not even Imagine the existence of India?

How myopic and shallow?

#559
Man Singh
URL
May 1, 2008
08:34 PM

Anamika # 557

Please come up with idea and arguments.

Just blaming for irratyionality and fanaticism will not work.

Such fanatics only saved India from clutches of Mughals once upon a time and then from British.

Elites in most of the cases acted as namakharm and gaddars and sided with Mughals or British.

landlord familiies in india are in real those who sided with British in spite of teh fact that they sucked the blood of masses.

It is ordinary people who always do the ground work no matter they know english or not.

here point of discussion is islamophobia and not proficinecy of English language.

English is a foreign langiage to me. even my English teachers in my village were not knowing proper English and i dun care much for that though I always keep my mind open to learn the tips from people like you.

BTW I was reading a letter written by Krantikaari Rajendra Nath Lahidi before he was hanged in 1927 by tyrant British rulers. His description of english educated elite siding with British are almost matching exactly what I am seeing here.

The way you are highlighting bllod stained achivements of medival invaders, associates of Britsih also use to glorify teh achivements of their masters exactly the same way while revolutioneries were sacrificing their lives for the motherland.

So relaxed anamika. its pretty normal in every age. people like me are always ridiculed and I am mentally prepared for it to digest the same.

#560
temporal
URL
May 1, 2008
11:10 PM

cs:

Please come up with idea and arguments.

based on interactions thus far do you think the tromino sages would recognise them if they landed with a thud on their varnished skulls?

#561
Ruvy
May 2, 2008
12:00 AM

For you monkeys in the peanut gallery:

determinedness n. found under the word determined on page 393, (right hand column) of the Randomhouse Dictionary of the English Language (Unabridged Edition),© Copyright 1967, 1968; LCC (that's Library of Congress, CS - didn't want to fly too high above your intellectual horizons): 67-12237.

Anamika - it did not give the citizenship of the word, so I can't tell you which flag it saluted. The origin is from the word determine, which, as you know, is derived originally from the Latin through French.

Anamika, I'm sorry that you do not partake of coffee. Given its origin from Kaffa Province in Ethiopia, I can only assume you have something against those of dark skin. Nevertheless, I'll keep an eye out for thé Pee féline for your drinking pleasure.

Always willing to be of service to a true scholar....

#562
temporal
URL
May 2, 2008
12:39 AM

de·men·tia Pronunciation[di-men-shuh, -shee-uh]

-noun Psychiatry.

severe impairment or loss of intellectual capacity and personality integration, due to the loss of or damage to neurons in the brain.

[Origin: 1800-10; < L démentia madness, equiv. to dément- out of one's mind (see dement) + -ia n. suffix]

more help here

#563
sridhar
May 2, 2008
01:08 AM

Dear Temporal,
The definition of Dementia provided by you is useful.
Now I understand why some people on Desi send me spam mail.

#564
Ruvy
May 2, 2008
01:09 AM

Temporal

de·men·tia Pronunciation[di-men-shuh, -shee-uh]

-noun Psychiatry.


How brave of you to share your personal difficulties with all of us; thank you for sharing!

But I'm at a loss as to how they relate to "Islamophobia" that we are attempting to discuss here....

#565
temporal
URL
May 2, 2008
01:41 AM

the person who does not live in occupied jerusalem:

;)

speak to your god

but

do consult with a good shrink who may be more helpful in treating your condition

#566
Anamika
May 2, 2008
04:07 AM

Ruvy: "I'm sorry that you do not partake of coffee. Given its origin from Kaffa Province in Ethiopia, I can only assume you have something against those of dark skin."

Run out of thoughts Mullah Ruvy? Or did god forget to talk to you yesterday? Or did dementia made you forget that MY SKIN COLOUR IS AS DARK AS A LOT OF ETHIOPIANS! Even as dark as some of the "Jews" you lot airlifted with great TV coverage and propaganda to "bring them home" so they could then be treated like dirt in the "holy Land" by their co-religionists.

You want to open the sickly can of Israeli racism? We could be here for a LOOOONG time!

#567
commonsense
May 2, 2008
04:51 AM

Ruvy:

""For you monkeys in the peanut gallery:

determinedness n. found under the word determined on page 393, (right hand column) of the Randomhouse Dictionary of the English Language (Unabridged Edition),© Copyright 1967, 1968; LCC (that's Library of Congress, CS - didn't want to fly too high above your intellectual horizons): 67-12237.""

Anamika, an Americanism it is. But unlike our friend Ruvy, I do not despise Americans. Credit, where credit is due to our friend, for finally relying on a book that is accessible to all to make his point.

And yeah Ruvy, thanks for taking my intellectual horizons into account. Your lack of references to your own esoteric holy texts and secret covenants has not gone unnoticed. Trust you will not indulge in flights of fantasy again.... (three dots, right English tutor??)

#568
commonsense
May 2, 2008
04:55 AM

Man Singh:

""people like me are always ridiculed and I am mentally prepared for it to digest the same.""

Man Singh, I haven't come across anyone ridiculing you. Can you provide us with concrete examples from DC?

#569
Ruvy,
May 2, 2008
05:00 AM

Well, for once Anamika, you made me smile.

If you were to open the sickly can of what is properly called the intolerance of the racist "white" secular élite (and their "religious" running dogs) of their darker skinned brethren, you'd find me batting on the same team as you, probably with a lot more anger, and a lot more passion. It disgusts more than you could possibly imagine.

What the secular "white" élite has done in ruining the culture of MizraHí and S'faradí Jews, and how it is repeating the same process with the Ethiopian Jews who have come here, is one of the reasons these bastards deserve to hang.

Of course, these are the very same bastards you admire so, who advocate the sick process that foreigners like you call "peace" - a process that allows Arabs to kill us, while satisfied Protestants running the oil and banking establishment in America and Europe nod their approval with smirks on their faces.

But, at least the Ethiopian Jews have a chance at equality in a land truly their own instead of being called "foreigners" (that is what falasha means) by Christians who hate them in Ethiopia. The same is true for Jews all over the Middle East and North Africa, except that the hate projected at Jews comes from Moslems instead.

#570
commonsense
May 2, 2008
05:31 AM

Our friend Ruvy deserves some credit for his constant and largely successful attempt to re-direct any and every discussion on DC in the general direction of Judaica. He does, it would seem, have a full-time job on DC.

#571
Ruvy,
May 2, 2008
05:35 AM

CS mewls: But unlike our friend Ruvy, I do not despise Americans.

From the first part of my series on how the American government screws the world over.

Finally; I'm not slamming the people who inhabit the United States, the average folks known as Joe Sixpack. Americans, by and large, are a decent, generous and kind people, even if they are too Amero-centered for their own good. Perhaps they are too naďve at times. But the decency of the average American should never ever be in question.

Learn how to read, CS.

#572
commonsense
May 2, 2008
05:57 AM

Ruvy:

""CS mewls: But unlike our friend Ruvy, I do not despise Americans.""

Let mewling cats lie (or tell the occasional truth)

Ruvy:

""Americans, by and large, are a decent, generous and kind people, even if they are too Amero-centered for their own good. Perhaps they are too naďve at times. But the decency of the average American should never ever be in question.""

How does the Random House Dictionary spell "patronizing"? With a "z" or "s"??



#573
commonsense
May 2, 2008
06:45 AM

Ruvvy (is it one or two v's?) what did the good god tell you today?

#574
Anamika
May 2, 2008
08:47 AM

Ruvy: Your fanatic credentials are well established. But you seem to be doing a good job providing racist ones too.

I guess that settlement teaches you only to use "human" terminology for Jews? So far its been "monkey", "mewling," and that pathetic bit on rejecting coffee for racial prejudice! Or should we start keeping tabs of all the "animal" terminology you use for all the people that aren't chosen by your god?

Or perhaps you have internalised the Israeli policies of considering all non-Jews in such animal terms that you can't even hear yourself. At least your former homeland cannot be accused of such crass racism as an essential aspect of public discourse. But then I suppose god's chosen people do not have to care what they call those that they believe they can kill, rape and torture with impunity.

Thank you for demonstrating that qualifying the other as "cockroaches", "animals", "beasts" is not diplomatic faux pas by Israeli officials but part of your national psyche and discourse. Funny just how you lot have recycled Nazi terminology again!

#575
Ruvy,
May 2, 2008
09:54 AM

[BLATHERING EDITED]

#576
commonsense
May 2, 2008
01:13 PM

On the other hand, it may not be a bad idea to avoid censoring Ruvy's "blather". To let his racism hang out for all to see: eg. "kikes", "yids" and other such choice epithets. The cliche about giving a guy enough rope to hang himself....despite the fact that he has done it so many times already...

#577
commonsense
May 2, 2008
02:23 PM

Ruvy:

""Finally; I'm not slamming the people who inhabit the United States, the average folks known as Joe Sixpack. Americans, by and large, are a decent, generous and kind people, even if they are too Amero-centered for their own good. Perhaps they are too naďve at times. But the decency of the average American should never ever be in question.""

AKA as self-hatred...ie. an American like Ruvy, and a Brooklyn boy to boot, pretending that he is anything but.

#578
Man Singh
URL
May 2, 2008
02:30 PM

Bhai CS

in place of giving solid arguments against the points I raised people start being sarcastic and that's what riducling is. It dilutes the all gravity of the problem.

Some eamples are here.

#145
temporal
URL
April 8, 2008
08:02 PMmansingh:

you are so right and so perceptive and so revealing that it looks like you receive divine revealation too

am just this close (holding index and middle finger together) to call you a prophet

#165
Anamika
April 9, 2008
12:00 PMWell Man Singh, now we come to the root of your Islamophobia and ignorance of history. You like your little rural stories of life in the village, so let me tell you the story of Israel in as simple words as possible:


#444
commonsense
April 23, 2008
02:48 PMMan Singh,

Have you written any poems about dacoits and innocent villagers?

#473
temporal
URL
April 24, 2008
07:15 PMms:

mujhay tou rona aagaya aapka haal paRh ker

#531
commonsense
April 30, 2008
07:02 AMGill and Singh,

Lonely out there without the lad from jerusalem? Have you guys started conversing with G-d yet?

In addition to that I have noticed people start writing on my behalf as temp many times offered `final solution' and many others propsoed concentration camps ofr Kashmiri Muslims ana I undertsand branding me as anti muslims and many more titles.

Funniest thing is that nobody till date came with any proposal how villagers should manage the attack by dacoits.

How Isreal should manage attacks by jehadis hidden behind stoying kids and bura clad women or India should deal with plane hijackers.

It is a matter of pure blindness that people like anamika and temp can see the kids with stones in hands and not able to see jehadis hiding behind them and firing in Isreali civil targets.

#579
temporal
URL
May 2, 2008
02:59 PM

ms:

in 578 comments how many times you or the other elite members of the G3 have commented on #253?

we want him and all israelis to live there in peace....with dignity, justice and guaranteed fundamental human rights as enshrined in the UN resolution...AND we want the same rights and privilegesfor the palestinians in occupied palestine and in the diaspora


the reason is obvious...israel does not want to live in peace and wants to kill, maim, expel palestinians from their land

this is why there is no official map of israel

and when the world reminds them of the resemblance of their policies of occupation, subjugation, ethnic cleansing, and terror that copies the nazi policies they bristle and foam

as if peace is death for the state of israel

read this again:

we want him and all israelis to live there in peace....with dignity, justice and guaranteed fundamental human rights as enshrined in the UN resolution...AND we want the same rights and privilegesfor the palestinians in occupied palestine and in the diaspora


either comment on this or offer YOUR final solution


#580
commonsense
May 2, 2008
03:18 PM

Temporal, MS has no answer, hence the tota-maina kahanees of dacoits and villagers....

#581
commonsense
May 2, 2008
03:22 PM

good MS. now, can you think hard as to why people are being sarcastic?

#582
Man Singh
URL
May 2, 2008
03:59 PM

CS # 581

when people become speechless, exhausted of logic they come down to sarcastism, ridiculing and character assassination or finding faults with language and spellings.

#583
commonsense
May 2, 2008
04:44 PM

MS, maybe you are right. But with all due respect, I suspect the real reasons as to why others are sarcastic are (in descending order of merit):

1. They are jealous of your obvious brilliance and rationality.

2. They simply have no rational response to your kick-ass dacoits vs. villagers analogy.

3. They are envious because you are close, intellectually and emotionally to the brilliant Ruvy from Jerusalem.

4. They are simply jealous and envious, a common condition in this world where dacoits pretend to be villagers and vice versa.

5. They really are the true enemies of India and want to deflect attention from this fact by resorting to childish tactics such as sarcasm and ridicule.

6. They have nothing but contempt for the true sons of soils and thekedaars of indigenous desi cultures like you and Gill.

7. They are misanthropes, pure and simple.

8. They are jealous of the achievements of Israel (which is real, as in Isreal) and want to derail the development of India.

9. They are the true descendants of Mir Jafar and Jai Chand and want to cover up this obvious fact by resorting to sarcasm and ridicule.

10. You get the last word.

#584
commonsense
May 2, 2008
05:16 PM

Ruvy:

""Learn how to read, CS.""

As a member of the non-chosen peoples, I do what I can. Any tips how I could get chosen?? Or am I beyond hope? I promise to I will learn to read, if the hope of being chosen is dangled in front of my eyes... (three dots, right?)

#585
Bhumi Putra
May 2, 2008
07:11 PM

Here are some points to ponder about Islam:
1. Malaysia, with a slender majority of Muslims, is an Islamic State. Countries with huge majority of Christians or India with such majority of Hindus are not Christian or Hindu States.
2. In Malaysian cities where non-Muslims are in a majority, elections are not held. Kuala Lumpur with a huge non-Muslim majority has always had a Muslim mayor, nominated by the Government.
3. Muslims have multiplied four fold in India, much faster than Hindus, since Independence while Hindus in Pakistan have been reduced to an insignificant number.
4. Muslims are the only immigrant minority who create trouble in the country to which they migrated and prospered economically. Today, they are threatening the British Government with danger to civilians unless the foreign policy is modulated to their dictates. The country which gave them shelter is being asked to make foreign policy not as the nation feels fit but as this immigrant minority dictates.
5. In all the conflicts in the world, one party is invariably Muslim.
6. In all non-Muslim countries, there is respect for rule of law. Legitimate violence is the preserve of instruments of State and any other actor using violence is condemned as outlaw. In Muslim countries, the non-State actors using violence are glorified.
7. In none of the religious capitals of the world, persons of other faiths are barred from entering the city. Only in Mecca, they are not only barred, the punishment is death.
8. No other religion of the world berates the followers of other faiths in such crude terms as does Islam. No other religious book legitimizes the killing of persons of other faiths or destruction of their places of worships and religious icons.
9. In India, millions of Hindus visits the shrines of Muslim saints. Do the Muslims reciprocate?
10. When a Muslim marries a non-Muslim, why is it that it is the latter that has to change faith?
11. The Muslim aversion to music and arts in general is difficult to explain in rational terms. No other religion, not even the extremely orthodox Catholic Christianity had such aversion.
12. Islam is the only religion (except the few Mormons) which legitimises polygamy even in 21st century. All others who permitted it earlier have changed with times.
13. The position of women in Islam has continuously deteriorated. Practices in some other cultures might still be abhorrent but these do not have State sanction. In Islam, the wrapping up of women is mandatory. Inequality, polygamy but not polyandry, evidence of women being equal to half a man, asymmetry in divorce laws, all point to a belief that women are to be subjected to total control by men which the holy book says in so many words. Practice of septuagenarians marrying teenagers is prevalent only among Muslims perhaps following the example of the Prophet
14. Islam is the only religion founded on negative concepts. The Book exhorts to do things in a manner opposite to that of Kaffirs.
15. Islam is the only religion founded by a totally illiterate Prophet.
16. Only Islam permits rejoicing at the destruction of places of worship and religious symbols of other faiths and considers it an act of merit. The writing of Muslim historians who wrote from tenth to eighteenth century in India is replete with expressions of jubilations and praise for the perpetrators when such acts were done. In 21st century, persons of other faiths entering through Jeddah airport are frisked for any scriptures which, if found, are torn on the spot and thrown in the dustbin. Religious icons, if found, are crushed underfoot by the soldiers in the presence of the owners. There are numerous records of Hindu idols being placed at the entrance of mosques, which were trampled by everyone who entered the mosque. Even the Prophet destroyed the 360 images in Mecca when he gained control of it. All this has religious sanction and is not considered an aberration. Even modern Muslims take pride in these acts and are not willing to concede that these were acts of religious bigotry.
17. The apostasy laws of Islam, which provide death penalty for any Muslim trying to change his faith, are the only one of their kind in the world. These are all the more irrational when one notices that Islam, being a proselytizing religion, would not have come into being except through apostasy by adherents of some other faith.
18. While we keep hearing of Islam being a religion of peace and of brotherhood, very few Muslims, if any, are willing to say that this extends to persons of other faiths. The peace and brotherhood of Islam is confined to co-religionists while there is much overt hostility, scorn and derision for other faiths.
19. While Muslims have reacted strongly to religion specific security measures being contemplated to solve the problems created at the airports by the threat in August 2006 by certain Muslim elements to passenger air transport, they have been comfortable with religion specific measures taken by many Islamic countries:
a. In Pakistan, non-Muslims constitute separate electorates.
b. In many Islamic countries, non-Muslims are given distinct passports.
c. In several of the Islamic countries there are different visa requirements for non-Muslims.
d. Mecca is the only religious capital of the world where it is an offence for non-Muslims to enter. The penalty is death. In India, there is hardly any important Hindu shrine which was not demolished and substituted by a mosque during the centuries of Muslim rule or where a mosque has not been constructed adjacent to it. In some cases, as in Ramtek in Vidarbha, a shrine finding mention even in writings of Kalidasa, you are greeted by a mosque as you enter the expanse of the hilltop shrine.
e. There are hardly any Muslim majority countries which have not been declared Islamic countries. There is hardly any non-Muslim majority country which has been declared a theocratic State. Bangladesh, liberated with Indian help, started as a secular country, assassinated the liberator Sheikh Mujib and declared itself an Islamic State. Malaysia with a slender majority of Muslims is an Islamic State with laws loaded against non-Muslims.
f. Many Islam States have, even in this age, religion specific taxation. Hindus suffered it for centuries of Muslim rule.

#586
Guido
May 3, 2008
12:28 PM

Bhumi Putra #585,

I'm not in a position to confirm or deny your assertions. However, do you have some links that support the statements? If not, what are your credentials?

My request is sincere. I don't wish to challenge or debate you, but I would appreciate some credible reference material if you have it. Thanks...

Ciao, Guido

#587
Man Singh
URL
May 3, 2008
06:12 PM

CS # 583

vowww what an analysis you have given.

No matter what the real reason is, they are doing tremendous damage to humanity by glorifying and siding with Invaders jehadi killers.

Yes I agree with your last point that many may be decendents of Jai Chands and Meer Jafars.

Let me again refer Dinkar here:

Re Ashvasen tere anek vanshaj hain chhipe naro me bhi.

Seemit van me hi kintu baste pur gram gharo me bhi.

(O Ahsvasen many of your decendents are hiding even among humans. They are not limited to forests but reside in cities, villages and houses)

#588
Man Singh
URL
May 3, 2008
06:53 PM

Bhai Guido # 586

Activities of dacoits are never recorded in books and put in internet.

Yesterday an Iraqi freind of mine (Mohammed Al Musharaf) who is a Senior Project Engineer with a Multinational coproration engaged in Enginereing procurement and Construction bussiness that almost 2000 Top intelectual professors have been asked by US authorities to get out of Iraq or get killed. These poor people professors has been virtually forced to migrate to other countries.

Do you feel such acts of gundagardi will ever be recorded anyhwere and put in some website as reference material.

Even if somebody dare to put, will `english speaking educated elite' will ever belive them or find them `credible'?

Look at Jaliawala bagh mass murder case. Britsoh crooks fabricated intelligence reports and Judge in London and India were presented as proof againts Dr Kichloo and Dr Satyapal who were not in the city that day but `evidence' and `intelligence reports' said so.

Now if you refer any internet link or British Archives or Indian Archives, you will get `Hunters' version of events and `Lions' verson will be declared as `uncredible'.

`Credible' sources say that Kohinoor diamond was gifted to British Queen by Sikh King Maharaj Dalip Singh.

But truth is that Dalip Singh was kidnapped by British when he was just 6 year old and was brought up as a Queen Loyalist since childhood even declared a Christian.

Now tell me from where I should bring `credible evidence' to satisfy people.

Malaysian King open gived cash rewards every year on hari raya (Id) festival for new converts.

some evidence are here though.

Revathy forced and tortured to convert and her child not given to her.
http://asia.news.yahoo.com/070706/kyodo/d8q70sq00.html

First Malaysia who reached Mount Everest manniam Murthy declared a Muslim after death only to make sure malaysian History books read a Muslim only as Fisrt malaysian on Peak. Stories here:

www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1592574,00.html

www.aliran.com/oldsite/monthly/2005b/11b.html

International religious fredom report on Malaysia 2006
www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2006/71347.htm

There are many more to make our people imagine that such nonsense may occur in a moderate muslim country like malaysia how hellish non muslims might have been treated in other conservative muslim countries or in India few hundred years back when democracy and human rights were not in existence.

#589
Guido
May 4, 2008
05:16 AM

Man Singh #588,

Thank you for the thoughtful reply.

By "credible reference material", I mean just that. A book, teacher, article, friend, media, internet, experience; we all get our information from some source. Every example you offered came from somewhere...you did not receive it osmosis.

You make the point that credible information can be fabricated. This is an oxymoron. When someone creates a lie to mask the truth for ulterior motives, it is by its very nature discredited. Misinformation and propaganda are fictionalized, not credible information. The lie may be perceived as "credible" by some, but history normally reveals the facts. Albeit, not always.

I give more credence and attention to trusted sources than I would to those unknown or obviously biased; there are some clear examples on this and other websites. Whenever I offer my opinion or assert "known" fact, I try to reinforce my position by including a credible source. This gives the reader the opportunity to judge for themselves the validity of my comments. I may cite personal experience, polls, independent research findings, or subject matter experts.

I understand that credibility, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I can certainly conduct my own research and/or judge the validity of the statements myself, but it helps if the person making the assumptions offers some reference to lend support to their claims.

Ciao, Guido

#590
Morris
May 4, 2008
10:33 AM

This is a very difficult subject. It is hard to be able to discuss without sounding anti-Islam. But discuss we must. Bhumi Putra in #585 makes several critical statements. A number of them do appear true just by reading news papers etc.. I agree it would be good to see some cedible references. On the other hand, perhaps some one can enlight us from the opposite side and refute these remarks.

Take for example this particular thread. It started with comment by Organisation of Islamic Countries. We do not have organization of Christian countires or for that matter based on any other religion. If they do form such organiztion there will be a great deal of uproar.

We do know for sure that all those countries are Islami republics. How would we all react if France or Britain decided to declare themselves Christian republics? Indeed under Sadaam Hussain Iraq was secular, now it is a Islamic repulic. So is Afganistan. Is'nt that interesting. These are verifiable facts. Recent banning of Indian TV soaps have left impression that this regime is heading in the same direction as Taliban.

Other verifiable fact is treeatment of minorities. Of course once declare yourself as Islamic republic, minorities become second class anyway. We do not know for sure why, but most Islamic countries do not have siginficant minorities. And if they do like Pakistan and Bangldesh, over the years they get reduced to insignificant number. Bangladesh is heading in that direction too.

It seems to me that natural tendency of muslim population is in the direction of forming Islamic state. That in itself says that Islam and secular concept do not mix. The only major country where democracy and secular concept working together is Turkey. But even here general tendency is not secular. The army is keeping them in check.

#591
Bhumi Putra
May 4, 2008
03:20 PM

I would send a more detailed comment on sources. Meanwhile, #586 Guido and #590 Morris would do well to just look at all the reports regarding recent destruction of temples in Malaysia and the difficulties being faced by Hindus there in cremating the dead.

#592
Bhumi Putra
May 4, 2008
03:23 PM

Sources - Part I
The sources are legend. For starters:
The History of India as Told by its Own Historians:
Edited from the Postumous Papers of the Late Sir H.M. Eliot K.C.B., East India Company's Bengal Civil Servant by Professor John Dowson M.R.A.S., Staff College, Sandhurst
In Eight Volumes, First Published 1867 - 1877
This set, based purely on the writings of Muslims, gives graphic eye-witness accounts of the cruelties committed on the Hindus by Muslims from 9th century onwards. There are graphic details of destruction of famous temples of Somnath, Mathura and Benares (Kashi). Also, the details of cruelties committed by Aurangzeb on Hindus have been recorded by those who were present on the scene. These contemporary observations by Muslim writers cannot be called biased or prejudiced against the Muslims.
Then, there is the travelogue of Niccolao Manucci, an Italian, who spent the major part of his life of Mughal courts and was very acceptable to them. It has gems like:
"This city (Benares) is small, but very ancient and venerated by the HIndus by reason of a temple there possessing a very ancient idol. Some years after my visit, Aurangzeb sent orders for its destruction, when he undertook the knocking down of all temples."
"Every five years multitudes of Hindus assmeble and wash their bodies in the said stream. This yields a good revenue to the Mugul king, for every person who bathes in the river pays six and a quarter rupees."(This is an account of 17th century when this sum was a fortune).
"This governor (Mirza Gul in service of Aurangzeb)was determined that the Jesuit fathers should not build a church, and he issued orders that no one should work at such an edifice under penalty of losing a hand."
"Often it happens that the turks seek you out and assail you with much abuse, and subject you to much dignity and shame. In these encounters it is wise to hang your head down lkie a Capuchin, and not open your mouth. At times it is necessary to bear slaps on the face with humility and even endure beating with a stick, for fear of worse happening. For if a hand is raised by chance against a Turk,such person is forthwith eithere forced to become a Mahomedan, or he is decapitated. The greates favour accorded to him would be to let him go free after cutting off his hand. It is requisite to inform all who mean to travel in these regions that they must not wear anything of a green colour. Turks only may wear clothes of that colour."
(A Pepys of Mogul India (1653 - 1708) Being an Abridged Edition of the "Storia Do Mogor" of Niccolao Manucci, Translated by William Irvine, Abridged Edition Prepared by Margaret L. Irvine, First Published by John Murray, Albemarle Street, W. , London, 1913)

#593
Loststone
May 4, 2008
04:08 PM

[Stick with one nick]